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Catching Up

Hope everyone had a safe Veterans Day weekend and that you took the time at some point to remember the purpose of the holiday.

It was good to have Tom Madsen on the show on Monday to discuss his own views about veterans, though I’m concerned by Tom’s recent health. As he explained, he spent a couple days in the hospital last week and the doctors are trying to figure out what’s wrong with him. Hopefully, it’s nothing serious. Please keep a good thought for Tom. Also, keep a good thought for our friend Chris from Paso Robles, who is scheduled to have surgery soon.

I continue to be pleased with how the radio show is humming along and how we continue to provide you with diverse points of view on the issues of the day.

Last Friday, for example, Marilyn Farhat discussed the decision by the LAPD to map neighborhoods in LA with high Muslim populations. Callers tried to defend the decision, claiming it was standard procedure for dealing with gangs, etc. But as Marilyn pointed out, there is no precedent for mapping an entire population of people. LAPD is taking lots of flak for this and we’ll see if they make some changes in the program.

Then Jerry Dagna joined us tonight to discuss his take on the so-called cultural wars between the “Traditionalists” who believe in a Christian-based nation and the Secular-Progressives whom Jerry just feels is against everything. Even if you didn’t hear the broadcast, you can probably imagine the calls on both sides that came in.

But that remains a primary mission of Hometown Radio — sharing the microphone with diverse points of view, especially those you may not agree with.

  1. Anonymous
    November 13, 2007 at 7:18 am

    I know you’re trying to be fair, Dave, but Dagna was over the line tonight. He ducked key questions from callers and painted in very broad strokes. He is so extreme. He makes SM Bill sound neutral!

  2. jerrydinaz
    November 13, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    To understand America and the under pinnings of how and why this great nation was formed one must read and understand the “intention” of the original founding fathers.
    Here are but a few of the thousands of quotes that clearly identify that America was founded by Christians for Christians. You may not agree, but that is unimportant to the intention and goals of those that formed this great nation.

    “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty … of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” (1816)
    — First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay

    “I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses … Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia … or to the Charter of New England … or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay … or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut … the same objective is present … a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people … I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country.”
    — [Liberal] Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren

    “… Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word … Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land.”
    — George Washington

    “Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
    — George Washington

    “Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?”
    — Thomas Jefferson

    “No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.”
    — James Madison

    “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not on the power of government…[but] upon the capacity of each and every one of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
    — John Quincy Adams

    “All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship.”
    — Grover Cleveland

    “In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade.”
    — Teddy Roosevelt

    “America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of the Holy Scripture.”
    — Woodrow Wilson

    “They [the Founding Fathers] were intent upon establishing a Christian commonwealth in accordance with the principle of self-government. They were an inspired body of men. It has been said that God sifted the nations that He might send choice grain into the wilderness … Who can fail to see it in the hand of Destiny? Who can doubt that it has been guided by a Divine Providence?”
    — Calvin Coolidge

    Now deal with this one and try to explain it away…

    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
    “Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand.”
    — John Adams

    I’d rather stand in the company of these great men that to place my hope of destroying the America they created with the likes of the ACLU and it’s cohorts!

  3. Agnostic Al
    November 13, 2007 at 7:41 pm

    Without going into a whole lot of detail, it seems pretty clear that things done in the name of Christianity in this country has done far more damage to people than anything even considered by the ACLU. Just ask the Indians.

    If I had a choice between a country without Christ or a country without the ACLU, I’d take the latter without hesitation.

    Yet the beauty of this country is that we have religious tolerance. Jerry may label me an “S-P” but what separates me from him and his ilk is that I am tolerant. I walk the walk. Jerry only pays lip service. He can’t stand anything that isn’t white, male, conservative, Christian.

    That’s what this is really all about, right, Jerry?

  4. jerrydinaz
    November 14, 2007 at 3:13 am

    No Al, That’s not what “it’s” about. What it is about is intent. Read the quotes above and then tell me our founding fathers had the wrong intent when they created this America.
    -It’s about a small loud group of people (secular progressives) that want to change the America of our founding fathers, twist and reinvent the constitution with radical liberal judges all the time avoiding the voting booth.
    -You may not like that 87% of America is a proclaimed Christian, and given what has gone on in the past 40 years shows great tolerance.
    But we stop at what is clearly wrong.
    -Our education system is a disgrace.
    -U-Tube is full of videos of young girls and boys beating each other to a pulp while their friends video it
    -It’s about liberal judges sentencing a convicted child rapist to 90 days in jail
    -a school board voting to give 11 year old girls the birth control pill with parental consent
    -It’s about our young girls leading the world in teen pregnancy
    -It’s about the 57,000 American killed by illegal aliens! 4745 so far in just 2007 far more that soldiers killed in Iraq.
    -It’s about the crisis in health care by illegal aliens abusing the system
    -it’s about the liberal press is not going to report the fact that only 2% of illegal aliens are actually picking fruit and vegetables, but 41% are on welfare.
    -It’s about The liberal media are not going to report that 60% of Housing & Urban Development funds go to illegal aliens
    -It’s about radical left politicians calling our soldiers rapists and criminals
    -It’s about radical left smear sites funded by soros calling one our nation’s most loyal Generals a betrayer!
    The list goes on and on…and the callers (about 50%) knew that what I was saying was true and were fed up with it.

    You may have got the house & senate a while back, but that is where it stops! Your “do nothing” congress is the biggest embarrassment in the history of congress and their 9% approval ratings show it!

    It’s about what’s right and what’s wrong. And America has had enough!

  5. Marilyn
    November 14, 2007 at 5:00 am

    The founding fathers recognized the importance of religion and morality in the lives of people and in the ethical base of any civilized society. They in no way advocated or encouraged the mixing of religion and politics, however.

    Their expectation was that citizens and politicians use the religious principles that encouraged justice, tolerance and diversity as a way to conduct themselves in a civilized and just manner. They did not intend for religion or Christianity to rule the nation.

    It is only natural that the founding fathers use Christianity as a basis of their argument. That is all they knew really. Most of them were not exposed to or well-versed in the religions of others.

    It would be prudent to point out that those same people did believe in the owning, lashing, and execution of slaves. They also put women as second class citizens.

    Everything has to be considered within the context of its time.

    Times are different. Christianity is no longer the only religion acknowledged in the world. The world is a small place and is full of diversity. Moreover, such diversity is inevitable and to isolate oneself goes against the principles of moral evolution. Ideologies that do not encompass others are bound to stagnate and they will turn into a cult. All religions have their own little cults as well.

    There can never be a United States based on “Christian Principles.” Many of the principles held in Christianity are held by other religions and ideologies as well. With the exception of the idea of the Trinity, such principles include tolerance, justice, advocacy on behalf of the helpless, and charity.

    A religion that focuses most of its attention on condoms on cucumbers or on how many sexual positions a person ought or not ought to have ceases to be a “religion.” It moves into the realm of a cult.

    Religions have a set core of principles without which those religions cease to be religions. Not teaching sex education in schools is not a core principle, neither is the dissemination of birth control to minors. Those are legitimate issues but they do not comprise the basis of religion or Christianity.

    The culture warrior myth that O’Reilly created is based on his own brand of obsession which seems to gravitate towards the baser aspects of human nature.

    Warriors practice what they preach and they lead by example. True warriors put the welfare of others before their own welfare and they serve the public good and they help those who cannot help themselves.
    Warriors do not encourage violence unnecessarily nor do they belittle the unfortunate.

    Most people do not want religion or ideology dictating what kind of clothes they wear and how many times they have sex and with whom. We might as well all move to Hindu-Kush.

    Those who are focused on such issues should maybe relabel their morality. This is not morality based on religious principles but on whimsical preference.

    True followers of any religion will begin at least by following the core principles of their religions before they move into the realm of personal habits.

    What good is being a “Christian” if we are indignant all day about teaching sex education in school when we encourage warring and violence against the poor, those of a different religion, and the children of others. People of all religious leanings and non-religious people have been guilty of that.

    One sixth of America’s children live below the poverty line in the 21st century. Can we ask those awesome cultural warriors to address that and fight for the rights of those children or should they all rot because our “Christian” values tell us that it is not our problem because it is their fault and the fault of their parents that they are in such a state?

  6. Anonymous
    November 14, 2007 at 5:36 am

    I thought I heard someone call in and remind Jerry that God is not mentioned once in the Constitution. Not once.

    I didn’t hear the entire segment, but if the ranting llisted here is any indication, I didn’t miss much. I reject those on both the Left and the Right who view the world in such extreme prisms. To suggest that groups like the ACLU have no redeeming value is laughable, but a white male would never understand. He has his civil rights. The ACLU is for those who don’t.

  7. Downtown Bob
    November 14, 2007 at 8:59 am

    Jerry; once again I see you are projecting. …a small loud group…. like the “cultural warriors”? …that want to twist and reinvent the Constitution with radical liberal judges… like trying to make an amendment proclaiming that marriage is only between a man and a woman? … or radical appointees by the Bush Administration? …87% of America is a proclaimed Christian? How about less than 70% is the actual number. Check the link.
    our education system is a disgrace… Um, how about the state of our education system is a disgrace. Funding is the crux of the situation as always. And of course, No Child Left Behind certainly doesn’t help the actual state of our education system, it simply accomplishes a “teaching to the test” approach, not real education.
    U tube is full of videos… yeah, that is what it is. As for the content of the videos there, one can find almost anything there. The ones that get the most attention are the ones that are the most outrageous; surprise!
    It’s about liberal judges sentencing a convicted child rapist to 90 days in jail… yeah, that was all he was going to serve, Not! Treatment was the motivation for the judge’s sixty day sentence that was going to be followed by a lifetime of treatment. But since you are such a “good Christian”, you would probably prefer that the offender simply go to prison for life.
    a school board voting to give eleven year old girls the birth control pill without parental consent… and … it’s about our young girls leading the world in teen pregnancy… holy moly man, can’t you make the connection? You would rather that the schools don’t make an attempt to reduce pregnancies, but you rail at the sheer numbers of young girls that are pregnant? Choose, Jerry; give them access and education or don’t complain about how many are getting pregnant.
    It’s about the 57,000 Americans killed by illegal aliens!… Wow, how sad that you tried to raise this false statistic. This number is not provable, period. Unless you have some specific proof, like news articles (not blogs or websites, real news) this number is just wrong.
    it’s about the crisis in health care by illegal aliens abusing the system… How about a little debunking of that statistic.
    … it’s about the liberal press not reporting that only 2% of illegal yada yada yada; No Jerry, 41% of illegal aliens are not on welfare. Link here to The Center for Immigration and read through the material. Illegal aliens to have some costs, but they also have some benefits. And don’t think that I think that illegal aliens are not a problem, they are; they are just not quite the “boogymen” that the right likes to make them out to be.
    Sixty percent of Housing & Urban Development funds goes to illegal aliens? Jerry, some facts here please, not repeating some tried but not quite true right wing talking points. A link to a news article or official government statistic, please.
    It’s about radical left politicians calling our soldiers rapists and criminals…. Jerry, if some soldiers committed crimes including rape, what they did was wrong. The fact that they did those things while in uniform makes their crimes worse. As for the charges of our soldiers committing rape: 500 cases of rape reported in Iraq. War is ugly; no case can be made for justifying attacks like those in the linked article, but perhaps when one’s humanity is mangled by serving in a combat zone, the breakdown of normal actions and responsibilities can be expected to a degree.
    George Soros, the man the right loves to hate. Absolutely no truth to the accusation that he “funded” the ad that General Patreaus “betrayed” us by not following his own plan of action for fighting insurgencies, but the right never has let a little thing like having their facts wrong keep them from having their boogymen. As for “our” Congress having a low approval rating; as soon as they actually do the job they were voted in to do, the approval ratings will go up. Good to see that nothing has changed for you Jerry; keep your head in the sand because reality isn’t much fun when you are wrong on so many issues.

  8. Dave Congalton
    November 14, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    Jerry — Here’s another sign. From NEWSWEEK:

    Across the country upscale accommodations are doing away with the Bible as a standard room amenity. And in its stead have arrived a slew of “lifestyle” products that cater to a younger, hipper (and presumably less religious) clientèle. Since 2001 the number of luxury hotels with religious materials in the rooms has dropped by 18 percent, according to the American Hotel and Lodging Association. The Nashville-based Gideons International, which has distributed copies of the Christian scripture to hotels since 1908, declined to comment on this trend.

  9. Rich from Paso
    November 14, 2007 at 11:17 pm

    Bob is wrong on so many points. Where should I start? At the top.

    Marriage exists to create a covenant between a man and a woman for the purpose of properly raising children. Not to say that a single mother or father can’t do a bang up job, but it is proven that no other method raises a child better than that of a family with a stable and caring mother and father. Liberals always trot out “for the children” as the reason to do things, yet the one area proven to be bestfor children, marriage, is the one area that anyone and any combination should be allowed to do it.

    Actually, you website says that 76.2% of Americans claim to Christians. Read it again.

    Your PTA.org website talks abot a 3.8% cut but in what, they don’t say. Throwing more money at a problem is not the answer. We have thrown $8 trillion at poverty since 1964 and we have more people in poverty. Again, if our governement officials were better stewards of our money that we send them, I might be inclined to want to pay more, but right now, no.

    Bob, you can’t say tell Jerry that since he can’t prove that statistic, he’s wrong. That is the fallacy of the burden of proof. Another way of phrasing your argument is: since you can’t disprove God exists, therefore God exists. You have to admit that a lot of crimes are committed by illegal aliens and a lot of those crimes are violent ones, like the four black college kids murdered by the illegal alien in Newark, NJ.

    I have to agree with Jerry on this one, but no right minded judge would let a child rapist out of jail after 60 days just so he could get treatment. You order the treatment to occur in prison and you punish the child rapist to the fullest extent of the law; which is the job of our legal system. It must be nice to have such an unblemished life to where you cannot put yourself in the shoes of true victims. Putiting a child rapist on the street after 2 months is a complete slap in the face to the parents of the little girl that had been raped repeatedly since she was 11. That child rapist deserved chemical castration for his crimes. That is the only “treatment” I think any kind of rapist deserves. Anyone who is a sexual predator of the two weakest segments of our community, children and the elderly, are beneath contempt and beyond vcompassion in my book.

    Your webiste does not debunk Jerry’s claim, but actually bolsters it. In your own link, the researchers actually say that newly legalized aliens will increase demands on social services once amnesty is granted.

    You make a big deal of the 500 sexual assaults in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that ignores the fact that a woman in America is raped every 2.5 minutes according to RAINN There were over 190,000 rapes of women in 2005. See my response to Judge Cahsman as to what I think we should be doing on behalf of those women. You ignore the 1 in 6 American women that have been sexually assaulted for the 500 that have been assaulted in a war you disagree with. Is there nothing you won’t politicize in your attempts to get America to lose this war? I guess not.

    Congress has low approval rating because they are incompetent and incapable of transacting the People’s business, period. The Democrats were not elected solely to get us out of Iraq. There is a segment of you foaming at the mouth liberals that want that. But no, as I have stated before, Democrats were elected for two reasons: they campaigned to the right of established Republicans, like Allen and Heyworth, for example. And 2, was because of the scandals of Foley, Delay, Ney, and Cunningham. The 2006 elelction was about an “anyone but Republicans” vote. If it was about getting us out of iraq, we would be out already. But these Freshemen Dems from red states have heard from their constituents and they know that Iraq is not something they can afford to fall on their swords over. The only people that it benefits are the Charlie Rangels and Nancy pelosi’s from overwhelmingly Democrat and liberal districts. Heath Schuler knows he will voted out for any Republican on the ballot if he votes to pull out in retreat from iraq. His collegues know this too.

    Moveon.org was founded by and funded by George Soros; that’s a fact. It is an arm of Soros that enables him to slander a general serving in combat without attaching his name to it. Soros is a coward for hiding behind Moveon and he is doing everything his money can do to undermine America.

    You say Jerry has his head in the sand. I contend that you are delusional beyond comprehension. Your reactions and citations in response to Jerry show that liberals of any stripe should not be allowed to govern America.

  10. jerrydinaz
    November 14, 2007 at 11:26 pm

    thank you for making my case again!

  11. Anonymous
    November 15, 2007 at 1:53 am

    2 things are clear here.
    1) Who is an “SP” and who is a taditionalist.
    2) There just may be something to what Jerry is saying.

    Thanks for venue Dave

  12. jerrydinaz
    November 15, 2007 at 2:19 am

    Ok Bob,
    Here is the main topic from the website you provided…

    Right-Wing Judge Appointments Threaten Environment
    by Steve Novak
    The fate of many crucial and long-standing environmental issues may end up decided by President George Bush’s appointees to the federal trial and appellate courts, instead of our elected politicians. Having failed in their attempt to gut such popular environmental laws as the Endangered Species Act, property-rights zealots and extractive industry big-wigs are now trying to advance their agenda through Bush’s nominations of ultra-conservative Federal appeals court judges.

    “environmental issues may end up decided the federal trial and appellate courts, instead of our elected politicians”

    So tell me Bob, How do you like that? Because the same goes for us traditionalists watching radical left judges reinvent oyr precious constitution.

    You and Dave and even Al are making my point for me!

    Let’s leave these decisions up to the voters. I’m delighted if that were the outcome!

    Thanks Bob!

  13. billy d
    November 15, 2007 at 3:42 am

    anonymous, marilyn,D bob dave you have made jerry point!
    last week you said you lean left but but tuesday with peggy you said you were in the middle of the road what gives?

  14. Marilyn
    November 15, 2007 at 6:29 am

    If we want to take the term “traditionalist” all the way to its original roots, let’s all go back to the Stone Age.

    Can’t get more “traditional” than that!

    One hundred years from now, what many people consider the new buzz word now, “S-P”, will become “traditional” to our great grandchildren.

    It is all relative. Can’t take things out of context, right?

    Regarding marriage, it is a “social contract” not just between a man and a woman but between two or more people as well as between them and the society they live in.

    The true “traditionalists” should know that the purpose of marriage is to regulate economic power in society by placing specific rules as to who can marry whom and who inherits what from whom and how much. The fact that people do divorce and divorce with a vengeance is an indication that the “covenant” is more like a contract that is negotiable and that changes across time. Covenants are eternal and sacred. There is nothing sacred about the actual contract of marriage. It is strictly to define a relationship between two or more people (and yes, believe it or not, most societies were polygynous until recently). That is why each society has its different rules that govern marriage, spousal duties, grounds for dissolution of marriage, who gets the children when there is a death or a divorce, who is responsible for the children, and who inherits how much from whom and who gets included or excluded. Marriages continue to enable the formation of alliances. That is why, even in our democratic society, people, on average, still marry within their social and economic classes.

    Marriage is an institution, no more, no less. However, those who sign onto that relationship may choose to take it further into the realm spirituality and religion, but that is a personal decision between the two (or more).

    The fact that many people marry in Church does not mean anything beyond the need of organized elitist religions to control people and to have a piece of the economic and ideological pie.

    Ultimately, the laws of marriage are governed by civil law, not divine law.

  15. the ghost of christmas past
    November 15, 2007 at 8:17 am

    I always love hearing from Marilyn just so I can stay in touch with what the socialist out of touch people think.

    What a cold, sterile worldview Marilyn has. No one marries for any purpose than maximizing economic and societal potential within a given social class. What a joyless and loveless world Marilyn must walk around in? No wonder everything in America sucks to her. How can you see optimism when there is no joy in your life?

    Quite sad really.

  16. Dave Congalton
    November 15, 2007 at 8:52 am

    The LAPD on Wednesday abruptly scrapped a program to map the city’s Muslim population, a major retreat for a department that said the system was needed to identify potential hotbeds of extremism.

    The reversal comes after a week of protests from Muslim groups and civil libertarians, who equated the mapping with religious profiling. Others questioned whether it was possible for the LAPD to accurately map the city’s far-flung Muslim community.

    Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Michael P. Downing said Wednesday that in the wake of the protests, officials would drop the mapping aspect of the plan but continue their efforts to reach out to the Muslim community. Downing and other police officials plan to outline the new strategy to Muslim American activists at a meeting today.

    The decision met with praise from some activists, who said they would welcome greater involvement by the LAPD in their communities as long as mapping was off the table.

  17. Downtown Bob
    November 15, 2007 at 9:07 am

    Bill D: If I may, Dave states that he “leans left” and that he is in the middle of the road; maybe he is leaning left from the middle of the road.

    Jerry: I furnished an example of right wing judicial appointees who are trying to circumvent the political process. Tit for tat now; please provide a link to a story about any left wing judge attempting to circumvent the normal political process and trying to “legislate from the bench”, please, in the spirit of “burden of proof”.

    Rich: Marriage is, and has always been a “legal agreement”. Check the history of how marriage has been conducted; dowries were “payment” for the “purchase” of the bride in many societies. For many centuries a married woman was the “property” of the husband, to do with what and how he wished. The modern, American version of marriage is still about the legalities; although you can have a marriage ceremony performed in a church, the “license” is issued by a government agency. Further, if you want to have a divorce, you must go about that in a court of law, not a church. Why? Because marriage is a legal arrangement, a contract. To deny anyone the ability to obtain this legal contract is a direct violation of the Constitution, specifically the Ninth Amendment. Yes, it is best that children be raised by two loving parents, and both a female and a male role model would be best, and “ideal” situation. But two loving parents that happen to be of the same gender are at least as good as one loving parent, possibly even better.
    The number you quoted from my link was for the year 2001. The updated number further down the page is 71%, and the projected number for 2008 is “below 70%”, as I reported.
    The PTA website clearly states that education funding has been cut by the Bush Administration by 2.1 billion for fiscal year 2007. That is a cut in funding for operating secondary and primary schools. There are nine bullet points listed below the paragraph that delineate the actual programs that are being cut, including the “No Child Left Behind” act. To try and compare the “War on Poverty” with education funding is a pretty lame attempt, especially for you. I am surprised.
    I asked Jerry (directly, or anyone else indirectly) to provide proof of the supposed statistic about how many Americans are killed by illegal aliens. I said that the statistic was wrong here, not Jerry. Unless you can back up your assertion that a statistic is true with some form of “proof”, your assertion is merely that, an assertion, not a “fact”. The link I provided pointed out a few paragraphs down how this supposed statistic came from Rep. Steve King (R-IA) who extrapolated this number from a single study from the GAO; no such figure was in that report. Logically then, one has to assume that Rep. King simply “made up” his numbers. I asked for “proof”; the request remains- anyone who has an official government document proving that statistic (57,000 Americans have been killed by illegal aliens), please link it or provide an address.
    The child rapist was not “released from jail”; he was removed from a correctional institution and placed into a treatment facility. The judge’s concern was that when the rapist was released at the end of his sentence, without treatment he would most likely be a danger to society. By putting him into a treatment program he (the judge) was attempting to protect society from a man who if not able to be treated would offend again, perhaps more violently and be a greater danger. The rapist will be in continuing treatment for most of the rest of his life. He is removed from society at this time and as such has surrendered his free will and ability to do whatever he wishes. It may not be “hard time”, but perhaps he will emerge less of a “hardened criminal” than if he did not receive the treatment the judge proscribed. Emotionally I do get “it” Rich, that the relatives and maybe even the victim herself would like to see the man suffer, but isn’t protecting society at large a fair trade off in this case? I will even concede that if my wife or daughter had been his victim I would feel much differently, but I try to not let emotion rule how I conduct myself. As for chemical castration, are you sure that this is not being considered for this individual?
    As for the link to the Center for Immigration Studies, there is this: With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services. And this: On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households. And finally: If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion. The point I am trying to make is that the statistics that the right likes to throw around are “interpreted” to make the case that illegal aliens cost our society too much, but fail to point out that if they were paid better and paid the corresponding tax rates of better paid workers, there impact would be reduced.
    My point about the link to the report about the 500 sexual assaults occurring in Iraq and Afghanistan was not meant to diminish what is happening in the United States, but was in response to a direct statement by Jerry that “radical left politicians calling our soldiers rapists and criminals”; the link was meant to show that, unfortunately, some of our soldiers are rapists and criminals. It is very very sad, but it is a regrettable “fact”. As for my “trying to get us to lose this war” as you put it; who would we be surrendering to in order to “lose” this occupation? Rich, come on man, you’re smarter than this; the “war” was won, we are in full occupation mode, what needs to happen is a political solution so that the Iraqis can start to take over the operation of their country. They had engineers, hospitals, universities and working infrastructure in place before we invaded, they can rebuild their country without our help, and I would venture to guess that they would prefer to do it on their own if given the chance. But they need to have a working government in place before that can happen. As long as we have such a huge presence there and especially as long as the contractors are there doing the jobs that Iraqis used to do, the interim government will not rise up to the task of starting to do the rebuilding themselves.
    The job that the current Congress was voted into office on that they are not doing well is to wrest back from the President Congress’s fair (and Constitutionally mandated) balance of power. The executive branch is supposed to have the job of doing (or executing) policy, both domestic and foreign and Congress is supposed to be in charge of how the funding and operating of federal agencies is carried out by approving or rejecting the Administration’s nominees to head those agencies. When the Democrats in Congress stop fearing whatever it is that President Bush has dangling over their heads and takes on doing the job of running Congress, then their approval ratings will start to climb.
    George Soros did give five million dollars to MoveOn, in 2004. MoveOn was founded in 1998, so, logically, one cannot say that George Soros funded MoveOn, but, one can say that George Soros has given them money.
    As for my “delusional state” as illustrated by the links I provided; I put together my comment over the period of about three to four hours on Tuesday night in response to Jerry’s cut ‘n paste from Bill O’Reilly’s “cultural warrior” ethos. It wasn’t meant to be a complete or perfect response to the assertions that were in Jerry’s comment, but an attempt to dispel some of those false assertions. A few hit the nail on the head very well, a few were “okay” and a couple kind of missed the mark, but hey, I made an attempt because I did not want Jerry’s assertions to hang there without a challenge.

  18. jerrydinaz
    November 15, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    qbwyofOK Bob,
    Here are some more facts for you to dismiss (if you dare!)

    Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily!
    4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

    This Death toll in 2006 FAR overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan

    In addition…
    13 Americans are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers daily! – for another annual death toll of 4,745. That’s 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.

    21,900 murdered yearly plus 23,725 killed by illegal drunk drivers equals…45,625 Americans are killed every year by illegal aliens!

    But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.

    A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.

    Illegal alien sex offenders!

    Eight American children are victims of sexual abuse by illegal aliens every day!!!!!!!! – a total of 2,920 annually

    Based on a one-year in-depth study, Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute of Atlanta estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of 4 victims each!!
    That is over 1,000,000,000 American children molested evey year by illegal aliens!!!!!

    Illegal alien felons!

    In April 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003.
    It found the following:

    The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests – some eight arrests per illegal alien;
    Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses – some 13 offenses per illegal alien;
    36 percent had been arrested at least five times before.

    According to Edwin Rubenstien, president of ESR Research Economic Consultants, in Indianapolis in 1980, federal and state correctional facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. But at the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in all U.S. jails and prisons, and the number is much higher today!

    If you are angered by the death tolls in Iraq how can you not be outraged at these statistic?

    Are you so far left that you will throw 1,000,000,000 precious American children,under the bus and tolerate their being molested by illegal aliens? Where is your compassion?

    If you are disgusted with the death tolls in Iraq how do you sleep at night knowing almost 50,000 Americans are killed every year by this alien invasion on our own soil?

    Dispute these facts all you want Bob. But I ask you this…
    1) What number of American is acceptable to be killed every day by illegal aliens?
    2) What number of children can be molested every day by illegal aliens for you to think that number is tollerable?

    I await your argument but more importantly I await your answers to the last 2 questions.

  19. Downtown Bob
    November 15, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    Jerry Jerry Jerry, get a grip man! Just because you repeat a right wing talking point about how many Americans you think, or believe or even wish were killed by illegal aliens does not make it so. Please provide some evidence of proof of your assertions. Official government documents or even legitimate news reporting would give your assertions some credibility. Without any backing evidence you are simply howling at the wind. Your figure for accidents involving unlicensed drivers is a good starting point, but even that does not prove that the unlicensed drivers are illegal aliens.
    As to your two other assertions concerning sex offenders and convicts, I will have to come back and address those later when I have more time. I will answer your two questions right now however: My answer is zero. I would prefer that no American either lost their live or that no child was ever molested or otherwise harmed by anyone, illegal alien or American citizen. One of your statistics should include the number of illegal aliens that drive drunk; I have opined here before about how lax drunk driving laws are and about how every drunk driving offense should be a felony. I also would prefer that not one more American died in Iraq or Afghanistan- how many more Americans have to die over there to satisfy your need to see us somehow “win” in Iraq?

  20. jerrydinaz
    November 15, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    Bob, all my facts are backed by the source of the information. Read it again. All of those sources are credible and accountable and stand on good research numbers and practices.

    I doubt you could disprove any of those statistics…damning as they are.

    As for how many must or should die for us to win in Iraq and the global war on terror…
    If we do nothing the numbers will be in the millions. So I say as many as it takes to win the war on islamo-fascist terrorists.

    I back that up by having my son in law in Iraq on his 4th tour. A brave and courageous young man. Losing him would be overwhelmingly devistating to our nation, his family and his young wife. But he is there and we support him, his decision and this war on those aweful islomo-terrorists!

  21. Rich from Paso
    November 15, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    The fact is that a liberal judge in New Jersey let loose Jose Carranza, who was in jail for raping a 5-year old girl, on a $50,000 (remember: you only need 10% to get a bail bonds man to front the rest). The child rape charge was a 31 count indictment. Carranza then goes out and murders three black college students in Camden, NJ(the fourth survived a gun shot to the head and was able to point him out). Carranza is an illegal alien without a job but has a fake social security number. By not holding this guy on a $250,000 bail, Carranza was able to get out and execute three college students. By having wishy-washy feel good liberal policies, by not sealing the border, and by being weak on crime with these liberal judges, Carranza was able to murder three kids with their whole life in front of them. This is what Jerry is talking about here.

    Bob has subjective memory. He forgets that 3,000+ died in minutes on September 11, 2001. It has taken four years to get close to 4,000 soldiers dying in combat. We will never know how many of the terrorists killed in Iraq would have been suicide bombers in Cleveland, OH or some other place in America. Fact is that our soldiers have killed thousands of al Qaida terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan. What is really sad is that the rabid, foaming at the mouth, Bush hating Democrats actually passed the Armenian genocide resolution for the sole purpose of poisoning the relationship with a staunch US ally in order to make Turkey so mad they would close Incirlik AFB to US military flights in Iraq making it that much more difficult for the military to resupply our troops there. I put nothing passed these whack jobs running Congress because this Congress has proved they are good at one thing and that is politicising everything but doing nothing. They deserve to have a 0% approval rating for their total lack of accomplishment.

    Good to hear from you Jerry. Be well.

  22. Marilyn
    November 16, 2007 at 2:42 am

    Dr. Ghost,

    Thank you for the free psychoanalysis. Next time I feel “joyless” and “loveless” I will definitely make sure I consult you on how to remedy that!

    There is nothing wrong with the institution of marriage. In fact, I think that marriage is the smallest foundation of any functioning civil society. That is why marriage was created in the first place, not because God had nothing better to do than get a man and a woman to have sex (time to move away from the ultimate loveless form of human expression, the idea of original sin).

    I sense that some people read without understanding. If you study families across all cultures and across history, you may get a glimpse of what I am talking about.

    Honestly, and really, how many “lovey dovey” marriages can you personally identify among all the people you know?

    Don’t misunderstand me, there are some awesome and cool marriages out there, but that has nothing to do with whether marriage or the family itself is good or bad; it has to do with how honest people are and how willing they are to work in partnership. Unfortunately, marriages are not set up for true partnerships but for necessity and for practicality. There have been a number of instances where families have transcended the basic aspect of the family and moved it into the realm of true partnership, but those remain the exception.

    In the modern “romantic” marriages, such romanticism lasts as long as a better prospect comes along or only and as long as one person’s “needs” continue to be met. That is not “love.”

    The issue here has nothing to do with socialism. Some of the most oppressive family and marriage relationships exist is highly religious and capitalist communities.

    If you work where I think you work you should have first hand experience of the kind of dysfunctional relationships in families. Most of them are derived from poor parenting (in the presence or absence of religion or a “traditional” lifestyle), psychopathic personalities, mental illness, lack of empathy and selfish attitudes and behaviors. Authoritarian families tend to carry a lot of that and they exist in socialist as well as capitalist societies.

    Many people are immoral not because morality is not taught to them but because they choose to be immoral. Most people in the world know the difference between right and wrong and most people know what it feels like when they are in pain. So, when they choose to inflict pain and suffering on others, including their own family members, that is not the fault of “S-P” morality. “S-P” morality teaches the same ideals as Christianity does, without God being the ultimate authority.

    There are also those who know what immoral behavior is but because of poor role models at home and in society, they become what they experience. If society reinforces immoral behavior, those who have such a tendency will take advantage of it. That is the pre-requisite for mob-like behavior in violent times.

    The relationships that I have observed to work well in the Middle East as well as in the West(and not all marriages are functional or fulfilling although they may last till “death do us part”) are the ones that were really based on a conscious and informed basis of what marriage is all about and what is expected of the partners involved. They involve open lines of communication, honesty, similar moral values, and action that supports the maintenance of the relationship. It requires a bit of sacrifice on the part of the individuals, not to their detriment, but to the welfare of the whole. It also involves empathy.

    The statistics of ruined marriages, loveless relationships, child and spousal abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, spousal and child neglect, infidelity and the frequent change of partners speak for themselves. Most importantly, the basis of all those dysfunctions is ignorance and poor moral character, mainly dishonesty.

    I do not think that those characteristics are conditional on whether we are socialist or capitalist. They are conditional on who we are as human beings.

    Going back to my original point, marriage and the family are defined and practiced differently in different societies and across time. The presence of the divine in the marriage is no more and no less than that found in any other aspect of our live.

    It is like saying one believes in God and worships God only when they go to church or mosque or temple. It is like saying we are charitable during holidays.

    One cannot be faithful or charitable part of the time. If you think the divine and love exist in marriage to the degree some are arguing (and I am not saying they don’t), wouldn’t the logical thing be that the divine also exists in every other aspect of our lives, including in our relationship with our neighbors and those we like and don’t like?

    My point again: we cannot claim we are goody goody by chanting about God in church and about how we do not like to put condoms on cucumbers, and we do not like NAMBLA, and we think that Clinton is going to rot in hell because he had extramarital sex at work, while at the same time saying that it is ok to kill innocent people in the pursuit of criminals, that we should oppress people in the pursuit of security, that anything goes in the name of safety, that the world in different (the world is always different every second), that we should destroy Islam because they say “God is greater” and because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, and while we continue to vote in ways that deprive the poorest and least privileged in society, the children, of their right to food and health care.

    How can one be one and not the other?

    And, how can one stomach the full belly of their own children while knowing that every night there are children going to bed hungry in the United States?

    Have you been to Appalachia and Kentucky lately? And those kids are not even illegal immigrants! Should they go to bed hungry because their parents are to blame or because it is the fault of “S-P” lawmakers?

    Visit Save the Children and get an idea of what I am talking about and then come back and “counsel” me about pessimism and “loveless” lives.

  23. Wilson
    November 16, 2007 at 3:00 am

    Marilyn decries

    “SP will become traditional”

    You should have migrated to the Soviet Union Marilyn.Everthing is free and nothing works.
    You are a socialist throwback.
    Turn the page and get real.

  24. BillyD
    November 16, 2007 at 4:25 am

    you bet BoB are you in the middle ?

  25. jerrydinaz
    November 17, 2007 at 3:46 am

    I was very concerned to see your response about marriage. In the western culture marriage is the glue that holds it all teogether and yes, some statistics are bleak but you seem to be looking in the wrong areas. If you ahve time please go by Grace Church, or New Life Church in Pismo and so many more and talk to the women there. You will see happy and balanced and cherrished women and children. It may show you another side to the culture you grew up in. I post this article written by a muslim woman for us all to understand the real reason for marilym’s attitudes about marriage. I hope this helps.

    Wife Abuse in the Muslim Community
    by Kamran Memon

    Wife abuse has hurt many Muslim women, destroyed many Muslim families, and weakened the entire Muslim community. How much longer can Muslims afford to look the other way?

    “And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and he has put love and mercy between your (hearts)…” Qu’ran 30:21

    “I recommend that you treat women with goodness. The best of you are those who treat their wives the best.” Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)

    While North American Muslims loudly protest the widely-documented Serbian abuse of Muslim women in Bosnia, the abuse of many Muslim women at the hands of their own husbands in North America is hidden and ignored by the community.

    Domestic violence is the single major cause of injury to women in America. “Nearly one quarter of women in the United States – more than 12 million- will be abused by a current or former partner some time during their lives,” according to the American Medical Association; and, despite Islamic teachings of justice and compassion, many Muslim women in the United States and Canada are no exception.

    Based on information from Muslim leaders, social workers, and activists in North America, the North American Council for Muslim Women says that approximately 10 percent of Muslim women are abused emotionally, physically, and sexually by their Muslim husbands. (There are no hard numbers, because community leaders haven’t taken the well-known problem seriously enough to research.)

    Wife-abuse, which stretches across all ethnic, racial, educational, and socio-economic lines in the Muslim community, results in severe emotional and physical pain for many Muslim women, a stacking up of sins for many Muslim men, and many weak, unhappy Muslim families that fail to contribute adequately to the development of the Muslim community and the rest of North American society.

    Despite the severity of the problem, the Muslim community has largely closed its eyes and devoted very few resources to helping the victims and stopping the abusers.

    This is doubly unfortunate because family violence is one of America’s most critical health problems (according to the American Medical Association and the U.S. Surgeon General), and Islamic leadership is needed to deal with this crisis; but Muslims are clearly in no moral position to lead society because they commit and tolerate abuse within their own community.


    “Domestic violence is an ongoing, debilitating experience of physical, psychological, and/or sexual abuse in the home,” says the American Medical Association.

    Although Islam promises women protection from such problems, the reality in many Muslim homes is different.

    The most common form of abuse is emotional and mental abuse. In Muslim homes, this includes verbal threats to divorce the wife, to remarry, or to take the kids away if she does not do exactly as she is told; intimidation and threats of harm; degradation, humiliation, insults, ridicule, name-calling, and criticism; false accusations and blaming her for everything; ignoring, dismissing, or ridiculing her needs; neglect and the silent treatment; spying on her; telling her she is a failure and will go to hell; twisting Islamic teachings to make her feel worthless because she is a woman; restricting her access to transportation, health care, food, clothing, money, friends, or social services; physical and social isolation; extreme jealousy and possessiveness; lying, breaking promises, destroying trust; etc. Emotional abuse can take place in public or at home.

    Although it’s completely contrary to the example of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, the Muslim community nonetheless tends to dismiss the seriousness of mental abuse, rationalizing it as a petty argument between husband and wife, and saying it’s not serious unless he hits her. In reality, mental abuse does severe psychological harm to many Muslim women. It destroys their self-esteem and makes them question their self-worth; some have mental breakdowns and go insane.

    Furthermore, psychological abuse can lead to physical abuse.

    Physical abuse includes pushing, shoving, choking, slapping, punching, kicking, and beating; assault with a weapon; tying up; refusing to help her when she is sick or injured; physically throwing her out of the house; etc. Physical abuse escalates in frequency and severity.

    The third form of abuse is sexual abuse, involving forced, violent sex. For example, a wife may not want to have sex for health reasons, but the husband may force her anyway.

    These three forms of abuse are usually related and occur of a long period of time. Muslim men, just like non-Muslims, often start with mental abuse and work their way up. Muslim women need to recognize the signs of escalating abuse.


    There are a number of factors that make many Muslim men abusive.

    Abusers are often part of a cycle, picking up the habit after watching their own fathers abuse their mothers in North America or in Muslim countries. And their own children learn this abusive behavior and abuse their wives. (This is an important point because the longer the Muslim community tolerates abuse, the longer it will be passed on from father to son, from generation to generation.)

    For cultural reasons, some Muslim men accept the idea that it’s normal for a man to hit his wife and that she is no more than a piece of his property.

    Some Muslim husbands abuse their wives as a result of frustration resulting from economic hardship, political oppression experienced outside the U.S., problems with the children, or an inferiority complex.

    Some abuse their wives because they want them to be more “modern” and less Islamic by removing their hijab (Islamic dress), while others are abusive because they want the opposite.

    Some Muslims with superficial ties to Islam don’t know that abuse is unacceptable due to their weak faith, poor Islamic knowledge, and lack of interaction with the Muslim community.

    Tragically, some Muslim men actually use Islam to “justify” their abusive behavior. Focusing on rituals, considering themselves to be Islamically knowledgeable, and disregarding the spirit of Islam, they wrongly use the Qur’anic verse that says men are the protectors and maintainers of women to go on power trips, demand total obedience, and order their wives around. They disregard the Islamic requirement for the head of the household to consult with other members of the family when making decisions.

    Then, if their wives dare to speak up or question their orders, these men misinterpret a Qur’anic verse that talks about how to treat a disobedient wife and use it as a license for abuse.

    In reality, the Qur’an and Sunnah provide clear instructions on what procedures a husband must use in conflict situations where the husband is innocent and the wife is rebellious and at fault. The first step is a peaceful discussion between the two of them about the problem and solutions. This is intended to soften hearts and eliminate misunderstandings. If this doesn’t work, the next step is for the husband to tell his wife his expectations in a firm, decisive manner. If the rebelliousness and disobedience continues, the husband is supposed to leave the bed, which is really a punishment for both of them for not being able to resolve their differences. If that fails to solve the problem, representatives of both sides meet to try and arbitrate. As a last resort, if he thinks it will prevent divorce by letting the wife know how serious he is, the husband can use a light slap on the hand or shoulder but not on any other part of the body, and it shouldn’t leave a mark or scar. Anything beyond this is Islamically prohibited.

    This procedure is to be followed _only_ when the wife is the cause of a serious problem and the husband is innocent, compassionate, and well-behaved. If the husband is the cause of the problem, he has _no right_ to do any of this.

    Unfortunately, Muslim wives often accept un-Islamic treatment from their husbands because they don’t know their Islamic rights, and they don’t realize their husbands are crossing the Islamic line.

    Abusive men are completely disregarding the Islamic teachings of kindness, mercy, gentleness, and forgiveness, just as they are disregarding the example of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who never hit a woman and was extremely gentle and compassionate with his family.


    One problem is that many Muslims don’t want to get involved in the “private” family affairs of other Muslims. Rather than enjoining good and forbidding evil, rather than trying to stop abuse in a friend’s or neighbor’s family by offering to mediate between the husband and wife or by encouraging them to speak to Muslim counsellors, many irresponsible Muslims close their eyes and pretend they don’t know there’s a problem. So the abuse goes on.

    Another reason why abuse isn’t stopped is that many abused Muslim women simply don’t seek out help. They’re afraid that if their situation becomes public they will lose their privacy because Muslims gossip so much, and they fear the abusers will become more hostile when the negative publicity gets back to them. Furthermore, many abused Muslim women remain silent because they lack confidence in themselves and believe that they somehow deserve the abuse. Abused Muslim women also keep quiet out of a feeling of hopelessness and a belief that no one will help them, out of financial dependence on their husbands, out of a desire to keep homes together for the children’s sake, or out of love for the abusive husbands. Other Muslim women accept the abuse as a fact of life and learn to live with it.

    Of those who reach a breaking point and seek help, many Muslim women turn to imams but often find them unhelpful. Imams often tell these women to be patient and pray for the abuse to end. Some imams make the abused Muslim women feel guilty, telling them they have brought the abuse upon themselves and instructing them to go home and please their husbands. Other imams, who are sincerely but mistakenly misinterpreting Islam by putting the importance of family privacy above any harm that might come to the individual woman, tell the women it is wrong for them to discuss their problems with anyone other than their husbands. The imams’s reactions stem from ignorance, cowardice, or friend-ship or blood relationship with the abusive husbands. Relatively few imams have had the wisdom and courage to tackle the problem head-on. As a result of this, many abused women don’t bother turning to imams for help.

    Looking for other sources of help, many abused Muslim women have turned to relatives only to be told to accept the abuse because making a big deal out of it could hurt the relatives’ family honor and reputation.

    Finding many imams and relatives to be more cruel than Islamic, abused Muslim women often turn to Muslim female activists and Muslim women’s organizations for help. While these activists are often untrained in crisis intervention, they are getting the abused women out of their houses and hiding them until Muslim men can be sent to try to reason with the husbands. They often collect money from other women to give to the abused women until it’s safe for them to go back home. When continued attempts to salvage the marriages have proven futile, these activists counsel the abused women on how to get out of their marriages.

    As for national Islamic organizations, most have largely ignored the issue of wife abuse, neglecting to highlight the problem and solutions during national conferences or to devote resources to helping abused Muslim women.

    Overall, the services provided by the Muslim community for abused Muslim women take care of one-quarter of the need, according to Muslim activists.

    Because the Muslim community often leaves them to suffer, many abused Muslim women turn to shelters run by non-Muslims for help. (Seeing abused Muslim women at shelters leaves non-Muslim social workers with an ugly picture of Islam. As far as many of them are concerned, Islam is no more just and compassionate than Christianity or Judaism because the Muslim community tolerates wife abuse too. Going to a non-Muslim shelter can result social workers taking children away from troubled Muslim homes if they think it is better for them to be in a more stable environment, which often ends up being a non-Muslim home.)

    Many women go even further, leaving Islam altogether because the Muslim community fails to live up to the Islamic promise of protection, brotherhood, and sisterhood.


    The Muslim community has clearly failed in its obligations to protect many Muslim women and to bring many cruel Muslim men to justice. The community needs to deal much more effectively with wife abuse in order to stop the immediate suffering of people in abusive situations and to help build healthy Muslim families.

    First, the community must accept the fact that there is a problem and that it doesn’t know how to deal with it.

    Then a core group of trusted, active Muslim men and women in each North American city, who are committed to ending wife abuse in the Muslim community and to strengthening Muslim families, must become knowledgeable about Islamic guidelines on the family and be trained in crisis intervention and counseling. (Unfortunately, some community “leaders” will be too ignorant or arrogant to seek such training; but they must not be allowed to get in the way.)

    Since there aren’t yet many Muslims qualified to teach crisis intervention and counseling, several Muslim women throughout North America have started learning these techniques from non-Muslim social service agencies (listed in the phone book under wife abuse, domestic violence, or crisis intervention). Other Muslim women and men need to follow suit. Whatever they learn from these agencies should be cast in the light of their Islamic knowledge of properly functioning Muslim families.

    Once they know what they’re doing, members of core groups across the continent should recruit and train others in their communities in crisis intervention and the Islamic perspective on the family. There should be a network of at least 100 trained counselors in every major North American city.

    A list of trained Muslims and their phone numbers (or one Muslim hotline number) should be circulated throughout the community in each city so that abused women know whom they can turn to for meaningful help.

    (Most of women approaching the network initially will be physically abused Muslims. Victims of mental abuse will less likely to reach out at first because many have become accustomed to the abuse and accept it as a way of life. But educational programs at community gatherings — explaining what Islamic family life should be like and explaining that there is help available for abused women — will let emotionally abused Muslim women know they have a way to stop the pain.)

    These trained Muslims should give abused women shelter (at people’s homes or at community facilities, such as a rented apartment) for periods ranging from several days to several months depending on the extent of the abuse, while counseling them.

    (Beyond this, taking into account the fact that many Muslim women will still turn to non-Muslim shelters because they don’t want to deal with the Muslim community or because the community program is not big enough to help them, the Muslim community should sensitize people running non-Muslim shelters to the particular needs of Muslim women; and trained Muslims should visit the shelters regularly and constantly remind shelter operators that they are available to help whenever a Muslim woman comes in.)

    While caring for the abused women, the trained Muslims should counsel the abusers separately, making them aware of the reasons they abuse, of the fact that their actions are truly harming their wives, that such behavior is completely un-Islamic, and that God will hold them accountable.

    After separate counselling, the next step would be joint counselling for the husband and wife, and then counselling for the entire family. The objective should be to heal the family, but divorce may be necessary.

    Another option, that some Muslims in New York have tried, is to punish Muslim men for their abusive actions. A “security force” warns, and then beats up, if necessary, Muslim men who continue beating their wives. Usually the abusers get the message; this is the only language many of them understand. Some men have to be beaten before they wake up and are ready to listen to rational, Islamic arguments.

    Police and psychiatrists may have to be involved in severe cases of chronic abuse.

    Community education is an indispensable factor on top of all this. Starting today, throughout the process outlined above, community leaders and other concerned Muslims need to educate people — about the problem and about efforts to help victims and prevent future abuse — through Friday khutbahs (sermons), educational seminars, and workshops. These educational programs can themselves reduce abuse by letting people know the community isn’t going to tolerate it anymore. the community isn’t going to tolerate if anymore.

    Furthermore, the community needs to establish classes to teach Muslim men, young and old, how to be proper husbands and fathers and to teach Muslim women, young and old, how to be proper wives and mothers. Many Muslims don’t know their rights and obligations in these roles.

    In addition, in order to prevent future family problems, parents and community leaders must teach children and young adults to be compassionate, to value the family, and to resolve problems in an Islamic, non-violent manner.

    It’s also important for Muslims to go into field like psychiatry, women’s issues law, social work, and counselling.

    No Muslim community in any North American city has taken all these steps. Unfortunately, the entire plan could take years to implement. (Of course, that makes it all the more necessary to start immediately.) But when theses steps are taken, abuse should decrease if not stop in the Muslim community, according to Muslim social workers and activists.

    If, once all these steps are taken, there are more abused Muslim women in specific communities than these networks can adequately help, then Muslims should establish good quality, properly staffed, and well funded Muslim shelters. Many communities may not need to go this far, but some may.


    It sounds like a lot of work, but the problem is serious enough to warrant a lot of work. The Muslim community has shamefully tolerated abuse for a long time. How much longer will Muslim families (and therefore the Muslim community) be weakened by abuse? How much longer will abusers be allowed to run free and unpunished in the community? How much more abuse will Muslim women have to endure before the community decides that enough is enough?


  26. the ghost of christmas past
    November 18, 2007 at 4:07 am

    Here is another reason why Islam is a jacked up religion: A Suadi Arabian court increased the punishment from 6 months in prison and 90 lashes to 6 months in prison and 200 lashes on a gang-rape victim. You can read about it here. Apparently, when the victim’s lawyer successfully appeal a ruling on the perpetrators, seven Arab Muslim men who had gang-raped the woman and her unrelated male friend, that their sentence of 11 months to five years for the crime was inconsistent with a fatwa against sinfully violent crimes. The punishment was increased to 2 to 9 years in prison. However, the court wasn’t finished. The court had previously ruled that the woman who was raped should receive 90 lashes for meeting the unrelated male. The court not only banned the woman from having legal representation, but her punishment was increased to 200 lashes. Time and time again, Marilyn has railed against the American legal system and the Eeeevvvvillll Bush Administration, but here we have a clear cut case of the absolute insanity that exists at the very heart of the Muslim world; Saudi Arabia. Is this your idea of justice, Marilyn? You’re a Muslim woman. How do you feel about a Muslim woman receiving punishment, after being viciously gang-raped, for seeing a man? Has anything like that happened to you or any other Muslim woman in America? Of course not. That won’t stop you from launching your scurrilous attacks against the country, despite its flaws and deficiencies, is still the greatest hope for peace in the world. All of you wonder why jerry and rich don’t want to end the war in Iraq. This article is proof positive why we CANNOT lower our guard for a second against radical islamic fundamentalism, like that found in the government of Saudi Arabia.

  27. Anonymous
    November 18, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Muslim “Honor” killing
    From Wikipedia

    An honor killing is the murder of a victim (almost always a female) by, or at the behest of, close male family members with the aim of undoing the loss to “the” family

    Victims (women) are usually killed for actions seen to be sexually immodest. Honour killings are widespread among Muslim tribes in Pakistan, Iran and most Arab countries.

    The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women. 5000!

    The preferred form of this honor killing is to bag the women in a sheet, burry her up to her waist in a hole and then fill it with dirt so she can not move, and then for the men of the town to surround her and throw stones until her skull is crushed and she dies.

    This happened in Iran not longer than 3 months ago. Some women made a video and then smuggled it out, only to have nothing said or done about it.

    Is there no wonder that this “religeon” of Islam comes under the world scrutiny? No wonder why we are at war with thse radical zealots?

    We need to be a force in the middle east to help stop this abuse of women, children and even Gays so that their human rights are protected from this fake religeon of male domination, hate, terrorism and even murdering of thier own women.

    We must protect the innocent at any cost. Anything less would be against all that we stand for.

  28. heed this warning from europe!
    November 18, 2007 at 11:25 pm

    Islam is taking over, says Dutch politician
    By Bruno Waterfield

    An anti-immigrant politician is making a meteoric rise with his call on the Dutch – once one of the most tolerant nations in the world – to stop Islam taking over Europe.

    Geert Wilders: ‘The Prophet Mohammed was a violent man’
    Geert Wilders, the 43-year-old leader of the Freedom Party, is convinced that governments are being forced to accommodate a ‘tsunami of Islamisation’ that is fundamentally incompatible with European social values.

    “Islam itself is the problem. Islam is a violent religion,” he told The Daily Telegraph. “The Prophet Mohammed was a violent man. The Koran is mostly a violent book. We should invest in Muslim people but they have to first get rid of half the Koran and half of their beliefs,” he said.

    The Freedom Party has jumped from six to 10 per cent in opinion polls since November. His passionate campaign for a ban on the Islamic veil, or burqa, in public places is gaining such momentum that the country’s new coalition government could be forced to introduce the ban it does not support.

    On the burqa, Mr Wilders is adamant: “It is a medieval token of a barbaric time, of how not to treat women, even if they want to wear it themselves,” he argues.

    Allowing Muslims to wear the burqa in the Netherlands, or to have segregated swimming sessions so as not to offend religious sensitivities, amounts to “religious apartheid” he says.

    The new government coalition of mainstream centre right and left political parties had planned to ditch a decision by the previous government to ban the burqa in the Netherlands which now has a population of one million Muslims, six per cent of the total population. But, Mr Wilders crows, weekend opinion polls show 66 per cent of Dutch citizens support a ban.

    The minority opposition leader who has won two previous votes for a ban on the burqa is convinced that support will be there for new legislation he will table in the spring as the Dutch become increasingly concerned over Muslim separatism.

    Wilders is convinced there is growing support for his views across Europe but its political leaders, particularly in Britain, are too obsessed with being politically correct.

    “There is almost no country more politically correct than the UK. Look at the terrible things that happened in London after Madrid, you have more reason than most to make this debate transparent and public,” he said.

    Mr Wilders split from the Dutch liberals in September 2004 over their support for EU membership for Turkey.

    Two months later he was living in fear after police arrested suspected terrorists, armed with grenades, accused of planning to kill him. The Dutch politician says he and his wife have received more than 600 death threats.

    Mr Wilders, who is always surrounded by plain clothes police guards, said: “I lost my freedom and privacy because of my opposition to Islam.”

  29. Marilyn
    November 19, 2007 at 12:47 am

    The burqa is not an Islamic tradition. Women were veiled in Biblical and pre-Islamic times. Read your Bible again.

    Islam supports the liberation of women. It is the men who are oppressing the women, not Islam. This is true of most cultures and religions and, since Islam is an Abrahamic faith, it carries within it the same patriarchal tendencies that can enable men to abuse women.

    Create a Christian or a Jewish state and you will see the same kinds of issues.

    Below are two sites that give a tiny example of how women in Islam feel about their religion versus patriarchy.

    Issues of Concern by the Muslim Women’s League


    Women’s Liberation through Islam: from the Institute of Islamic Foundation and Liberation

  30. Anonymous
    November 19, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    So marilyn,
    You are saying that all would be perfect in the world if it were not for men?

    Tilt your cards back up! You are showing your hand.

    Any rational person would be able to see right through that pholosophy.

    We have to get back to the main point, and that is “Islam is a dangerous and violent religion” and must be brought under the control of the rational world.

    The war on terror is not only right but righteous! It must be won to protect the innocent, but not from men, but rather a twisted sick dogma that requires killing and terrorism in order to further it’s goal of world domination.

    To this day few, if any, muslims have renounced the actions of terrorist groups, but rather support the “philosphy” of what they stand for and are trying to accomplish.

    Islam is it’s own worst enemy, and when any rational person looks to that “religion” it sees what is at the base of it all. Hatred and terrorism in the name of allah. Death and murdering is not only accepted as a strategy it is in fact encouraged and ordered by the koran.

    When a religion’s main goal is to wipe out an entire race of people (Jews) and to destroy the infidels of western societies something is really really wrong. People around the globe are now seeing what islam is really up to and it’s not going to stand for it.

    That is why we are in Iraq, for it doesn’t really matter what feild we chose to engage this brutal totalitarian religion, it just matters that we say enough is enough and that is what is at stake in winning the global war on islamic terrorism.

    As a result of our winning this war, and we will,…women, children, gays, Christians & Jews around the world will be safer and protected by those societies that value the person, and respect their rights above all else.

  31. Anonymous
    November 20, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Islam is Totalitarianism

    The religion of Muslims reeks of undemocratic fascism; indeed, every country run by Muslim theocrats is a totalitarian state.

    Islamic law regulates every aspect of public and private life: it does not differentiate between rituals, legal codes, ethics, and good manners. Islam legislates everything, such as the proper use of toothpicks, the hand with which you wipe yourself after a bowel movement, the sexual habits of married couples, the treatment of slaves, and wedding invitations. Religious duties, such as prayer and pilgrimage, are made into national law; affairs of state such as taxes and warfare are written into the Koran.

    From the beginning, Mohammed was a religious leader as well as a political force. His breathtaking victories in battle convinced the Muslims that Allah was truly on their side.

    Just as Catholicism has its doctrines of papal infallibility (along with the various embarrassing clarifications, corrections and outright cancellations of papal decrees over the centuries), Islam has its own source for unarguable interpretation of the will of God: the theologians who dedicate their lives to studying the intricacies of Islam. When leading scholars of the various schools of Islamic thought came to a final agreement on an issue, large or small, that agreement was then inviolable. No further interpretation was possible. In fact, around 1100 years ago, the scholars decided that all the essential issues of Islamic study had been settled once and for all. They established a kind of agreement that no one else could possibly interpret Islamic law differently, and that all discussion about the laws would henceforth revolve around the explanation and application of the law.
    Thus, all possible dissent or alternative interpretations were done away with for good. In fact, the crime of heresy is still punishable by death in Islamic nations. The Koran specifically states:

    22.9: “As for the unbelievers, for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.”

    47.4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”

    9.29,30: “Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed but believe neither in God nor the Last Day, and who do not forbid that which God and His Apostles have forbidden, and who refuse to acknowledge the true religion until they pay the poll-tax without reservation and are totally subjugated. The Jews claim that Ezra is a son of God, and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is a son of God.’ Those are their claims which do indeed resemble the sayings of the Infidels of Old. May God do battle with them! How they are deluded!”

    It’s not just stuffy fundamentalist overlords that interpret the Koran so strictly. Average citizens become blind with rage when they learn of blasphemy, heresy or progressive ideas in their midst. For example, on May 2, 1996, women cyclists at the Chitgar sports complex in Teheran were attacked by militant Muslims because of the shameful display created by their bicycle-riding. Sports officials at the scene were also assaulted and the complex was ransacked. Scholars said that women on bicycles were “indecent” and “provocative.”
    Last January, the Malaysian government ordered all supermarkets to create separate checkouts lanes for men and women, explaining that this would prevent excessive mingling between the sexes, an issue of great importance to Muslims. And in Cincinnati, Ohio, Carlos Sanders was recently convicted of instigating a riot in the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility. Sanders asserted that mandatory tuberculosis tests were a violation of his Muslim beliefs, so he and his fellow Muslim prisoners killed a guard to show that they were serious about their moral values.

    The case of Carlos Sanders is a small example in Islam’s long history of using murder as a means of dealing with unbelievers. Under Muslim law, atheism is the greatest sin of all – more heinous than murder, theft, rape or adultery – and is therefore punishable by death.

    The law also demands execution of any Muslim man or woman who decides to convert to another religion.

    An Islamic scholar of the thirteenth century states: “Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel.” Non-Muslims are forbidden to express their religious beliefs in Muslim nations, and even members of minority Muslim sects are tortured and even executed. Shia Muslims and members of the Ahmadiyya movement have been harassed and slain for their beliefs by fellow Muslims. Muslim thought police regularly detain citizens for minor infractions of Islamic law – if the infuriated citizenry doesn’t first tear the transgressor limb from limb. There are two shocking examples of religiously driven hysteria in Pakistan:
    1) a mob in Karachi stones an abandoned infant to death “on the presumption that it was illegitimate and thus could not be tolerated”;
    2) Another mob seizes a man and, without proof or trial, severs his hand simply because a mulla (priest of Islam) told them the man was a thief.

    The very concept of free individuals with the right to make their own decisions is entirely absent from Islamic theocracies. There is no deciding between right and wrong but rather a robotic following of orders. Her is a quote from one Muslim thinker:

    “The Western liberal emphasis upon freedom from restraint is alien to Islam. … Personal freedom lies in surrendering to the Divine Will. … It cannot be realized through liberation from external sources of restraint … individual freedom ends where the freedom of the [Islamic] community begins. … Human rights exist only in relation to [Islamic] obligations. … Those individuals who do not accept these obligations have no rights. … Much of Muslim theology tends toward a totalitarian voluntarism.”

    Knowing the real truth about islam will help Americans understand the importance of winning the global war on terror…on islam… for the safety and freedoms of the planet!

  32. patty in nipomo
    November 21, 2007 at 4:18 am

    David if you get any news on Tom Madsen please let us know.

  33. the ghost of christmas past
    November 21, 2007 at 4:42 am

    The shame is that the people who blindly support and adhere to Islam are too stupid and too blinded by the “religion of peace” to understand just how insane their religion can be. I say can in italics because there are millions of sane Muslims that use common sense and act within the generally accepted norms of human civilization. But there are still the absolute morons whose brains are firmly planted in the 7th century. What purpose does it serve to give a woman 200 lashes for meeting a man, regardless if she is related or married to him or not, especially after 7 men gang-raped her, and those men are not put to death? What possible purpose does it serve to stone women to death for perceived, or even real, infractions? None. The chopping off of hands, stoning to death,etc. is state/relgion condoned and encouraged infliction of cruel and unusaual punishment that makes any perceived abuses on Muslims found at either Abu Ghraib or guantanamo. Cruelty to humanity is the cornerstone of Islam as mullahs and immams tell their zealots to murder innocent men, women and children by the most cruel means possible. Tehy desecrate the bodies of their enemies after they behead them, for heaven’s sake. Look at 9/11; look at the Bali bombing; look at the Jordanian wedding bombing by Zarqawi; look at any of the bombings that have murdered innocent Iraqis in and around baghdad. You will see a pattern of barbarism that is not only fully sanctioned by the religious elite of Islam but supported by many of the followers of Islam because it strikes at “the Infidels”. Who are these “infidels”? It is you and I that buy gas at $3.40 a gallon so we can get to work. It is you and I that bought a toy for our child made of plastic. It is you and I that paid our taxes so that CalTrans can put new asphault on our roads. It is you and I that are just living our lives day to day. And what do the power elite in the Arab world do with the money we send them for oil? Why they give it to madrassas that teach, preach and inculcate children in the most virolent and hate-filled views of Islam. They allow their Immams to preach hatred and subserviance while the power elite buy solid-gold Rolls Royce limosines and build palace after palace and build indoor snow skiing slopes in Dubai, and run harems of former Playboy bunnies (that one is the Sultan of Brunei). And abuses to women are unparalleled anywhere else in the world. Rape as a form of punishment is common place. Stoning women to death is common. Making women hide their faces and eat in separate rooms and be passed around and traded for goods like children trade baseball cards is common. There is more harm than good that comes from islam to women. Marilyn can try to slam, slander and impune this country all she wants, but deep down inside, in her heart of hearts, she thanks God/Allah/whoever nightly that she is so blessed to be in this country and not her Lebanon or any other Muslim country. For she, more than anyone else, understands she would be dead and in the ground months ago if she spoke of her country, leaders and religion the way she speaks about the United States, George Bush or Christianity. She may never have the courage to admit it, but I am quite certain that this is very much a fact.

  34. Marilyn
    November 21, 2007 at 7:03 am


    If you do not want Saudi women to be abused, write a letter to your elected representatives and ask them to put pressure on the Saudi government, or Iranian government, or Afghan governments. Those are the three countries in the Middle East that still practice pre-Islamic and barbaric customs, not because they are Muslim but because they are theocracies ruled by the tyranny of MALE religious groups.

    I will say it again: if you get religion muddled in politics in the United States, the same will happen here.

    Most other countries with Muslims living in them do not chop people’s heads off and do not lash their women because such crimes fall under the jurisdiction of state law, not religious law.

    Atrocities are committed in war on all sides and, yes, having lived in Lebanon during a brutal civil war, I can assure you there is plenty of barbarism to go around and that would make your hair stand on end.

    In those days, there were no religious extremists in the Middle East; there was no Hamas, no Hezbollah (they don’t behead people, by the way), no suicide bombers. Heck there was not even a Khomeini. There was the Shah and, tell you what, the Savak did as much torturing and beheading as any religious fanatic group. The Lebanese Muslims, Christians, and Druze were killing each other right and left, and the European Jewish Zionists of Israel were incinerating children and torturing people and assassinating individuals all over the place.

    In those days, there was Saudi Arabia which was and continues to be barbaric and gluttonous. I suggest if you truly care about the welfare of those people that you get yourself over there and lobby for a non-religious state and lobby your president to impose sanctions on the Saudis the same way he imposed sanctions on Iraq and now Iran.

    The biggest contributer to violence and the oppression of women is war and if we do not leave those societies alone to take care of their own tyrants, we will continue to make matters worse.

    Six years after the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, what do the Afghan women have to show for it? They still wear the burqa.

    Six years after the invasion and occupation of Iraq, we have fueled sectarian extremism in a previously secular society. It is no longer safe for a woman to set foot outside her house, especially after dark.

    Have you looked at video footage of Iraq lately? Take a close look and tell me how many women you see walking on the street in Baghdad on their own?

    Maybe if we left people alone for a change they could take care of their own tyrants.

    The people of the Middle East are not perfect, but they have not been left alone since the lands of the Ottoman Empire were divided up amongst the European nations and since the displacement and murder of Palestinian people at the hands of European Jewish colonists. Even the PLO did not come about until 1965 and Arab and Muslim children and women were being killed by the thousands by the Zionist invaders. No one lifted a finger to help them in those days. The evidence is in the fact that there is close to 3 million of them still scattered outside their homeland. People in the United States began to notice Palestinians when they started to become violent but, before then, the myth was “they do not exist.”

    Tell me one thing: how is a nation as small as Lebanon supposed to exist in peace when the United States and France continue to interfere in Lebanese economic, political, and legal affairs. Those countries, with the help of the World Bank are dictating to small nations what kind of companies they can do business with, how they will run their public utilities, and insisting that there should be no compromise in the current Lebanese electoral process. That is the same idiot who told the same Lebanese that it was “too soon” to stop the brutal bombardment of Lebanon in 2006.

    How would you feel if the prime minister of Lebanon showed up at your doorstep to tell American elected officials that they cannot compromise on matters that deal with internal American politics? Would you tolerate such interference?

    Also, never in the history of the world has a foreign government interfered with the criminal legal proceedings of another government. Case in point: the Hariri assassination which is a political assassination related to Lebanese politics. The United States and the UN Security Council have no business telling the Lebanese judiciary and law enforcement what to do and when and how to conduct an investigation into an internal Lebanese matter. What makes this especially dire for smaller nations is the fact that Chapter 7 of the UN charter was invoked to push for an international investigation. Chapter 7 deals with threats to international peace. This is especially significant because a precedent has been set and every group in every country in the world can be messed with under the guise of “international security.”

    So, tomorrow or next month, if you and a group of your buddies decide to form a militia and voice your dissatisfaction with some of the politics and you start becoming vocal, guess what, you are a terrorist! How come? There is a customary precedent now; by being vocal about your political views, you are inciting dissent and, because you have a group and have guns, you become a “person of interest” at the least.

    How would you have felt when Kennedy and Reagan were shot to have the UN Security Council and the USSR step in and order the U.S. government to conduct an investigation of those shootings on their own terms?

    You would not like it, would you?

    That is precisely the kind of bullying behavior that the world is facing now and all in the name of globalisation and the military-industrial complex with the United States and its main enabler.

    The United States has the opportunity to be the leader of true freedom and democracy in the world. Instead, we are becoming the mouthpieces of the mega-corporations and their ideologues in office.

    Watch our for the new domestic terrorism law that just passed the House:

    “A little-noticed anti-terrorism bill quietly making its through Congress is raising fears of a new affront on activism and constitutional rights. The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act was passed in an overwhelming 400 to six House vote last month. Critics say it could herald a new government crackdown on dissident activity and infiltration of universities under the guise of fighting terrorism. The bill would establish two government-appointed bodies to study, monitor and propose ways of curbing what it calls homegrown terrorism and extremism in the United States. The first body, a National Commission, would convene for eighteen months. A university-based “Center for Excellence” would follow, bringing together academic specialists to recommend laws and other measures.

    Critics say the bill’s definition of “extremism” and “terrorism” is too vague and its mandate even more broad. Under a false veil of expertise and independence, the government-appointed commissions could be used as ideological cover to push through harsher laws.

    Following last month’s approval in the House, the Senate version is expected to go before the Judiciary Committee this week.” Democracy Now.

    Maybe Islam is not the real problem???????

  35. the ghost of christmas past
    November 21, 2007 at 9:22 am

    Okay, let me take your points one at a time as I see them:

    If you do not want Saudi women to be abused, write a letter to your elected representatives and ask them to put pressure on the Saudi government, or Iranian government, or Afghan governments.

    So you are saying that the women of these countries have been abused into total passivity. I’m very sorry to hear that the women of these countries have nothing to look forward to except the continued maltreatment of their evil Muslim men. But that was not my point. My point was that the brand of Islam practiced in these countries, as well as the trillions of petro-dollars the West send the Middle East, is the source of the virulent Islam that, yes, is only practiced by a very small minority of Arabs. However, it is this very small minority that is murdering a shit load of innocent people these days.

    In those days, there were no religious extremists in the Middle East; there was no Hamas, no Hezbollah (they don’t behead people, by the way), no suicide bombers. Heck there was not even a Khomeini.

    There were plenty of extremists in Islam. The Muslim Brotherhood was all to happy to support that other Arab extremist group you failed to mention, the Palestinian Liberation Organization. But that was okay since they were only murdering the Israeli olympic team in Munich, or killing other Jews indescriminately, right? The MB also is held as responsible for the assassination of the Egyptian Prime Minister in 1948. I think you are being way too polyanna-ish and overly biased in favor of those of your faith. Fact is that there were many many extremist Muslim groups, they just didn’t make it onto the world’s radar scope.

    The Hariri assassination… The only reason why the Bush Administration and the rest of the world got involved in that case was because, in what should be perceived as an act of war on the people of Lebanon, the State of Syria conspired to assassinate a head of state. You say that the world meddled in Lebanese affairs? I, and those governments you say are meddling, believe that Syria has so corrupted the government of Lebanon that no justice can take place. That is justice for the Lebanese people. But if you are cool with your former countrymen and women not having the justice for a crime against all because you don’t want other nations “meddling” in your affairs, that is your problem, not mine.

    Then you blathered on about being a terrorist if you form a group or somethign, America sucks, mega-corporations ruining the world blah blah blah. Not sure what your point was or even if you had one here.

    I don’t necessarily think that politicians are corporate mouth pieces because they are too busy building their own personal power base and self aggrandisment. They only care about issues like the Hariri assassination as a periphial concern.

  36. Anonymous
    November 21, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    marilyn’s epistle is a perfect example of an “SP” position.
    She complains about that which is in a flawed and destructive terrorist oppressive totalitarian religion and she sees the government as the solution.

    Not gonna happen, wouldn’t be prudent!

    You cannot change thousands of years of an insane and evil religion. What you can change is to bring in the values of the west and democracy and human rights into those oppressed countries and liberate their women, children and gays and at the same time free the world of this evil and sick notion that the world must convert or die.

    And that is why we are in Iraq fighting this global war on islamo-fascism.

    So just relax and sit back and let the troops do their job. It’s already working! Residents are moving back into Iraq’s cities and the surge is working like a Swiss watch. The people there have tasted democracy and they like it!

    That and that alone is how you change the world. And we will accomplish that in our lifetimes.

    Every country the USA and its allies defeated in a war is doing 100% better today.
    Germany, Japan, South Korea, the list goes on.
    Next are the islamic totalitarian countries and then it’s on to China.

    True democracy and Judeo-Christian values will prevail.

    btw: Great post Rich!

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