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A Totalitarian State?

Santa Maria Bill closed down the week on Friday with an interesting discussion about whether or not the United States had become a Totalitarian state under the Bush administration. The phone calls came in fast and furious, with most callers agreeing with Bill. Feel free to check out the podcast, which will be posted on Monday morning.

Drawing on the writings of Naomi Wolfe, Bill argued that there were ten conditions that had been found in all Totalitarian governments during the 20th century:

(1) Invoke either an internal or external threat to the country (9-11)

(2) Establish secret prisons

(3) Develop a paramilitary force (Blackwater)

(4) Conduct surveillance on ordinary citizens

(5) Infiltrate citizen groups

(6) Arbitrary detention and release of private citizens

(7) Target key individuals

(8) Restrict the press

(9) Cast criticism as espionage, or dissent as treason

(10) Subvert the rule of law

So here’s my question: Which one of these ten HAVEN’T we seen in the last seven years.

Thank you Bill, you’re a GREAT AMERICAN!

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  1. Anonymous
    November 3, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Yup! sounds correct to me.

  2. great to be a republican
    November 4, 2007 at 12:15 am

    SM Bill is a radical left socialist that copies every hate Bush thought and claims it was his.

    Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA), one of the wackiest fruits on the left drummed up this idea recently to keep the press off the melt down crash & burn of Hellery rotten clinton during the debates and the week that followed.

    You socialist are truely sad! What will you do when another republican takes the white house in o8? Start hating HIM?

    Get a life Dave and bill…you are so pathetic you even use a Sean hannityism at the end of the pathetic blog topic.

    Bottom line is this:
    1) You hate that the war is going very well
    2) You hate even more that not one of your top 3 candidates has a backbone to say they will end the war
    3) You hate that Huckabee is coming on stronger every day (the thought of another born again Christian sends you into lib orbit!)
    4) You hate that even your most liberal journalists like Russert are taking hellery to the woodshed for being a lying sack!
    5) you hate that you don’t have one candidate that can win in 08.

    You radical secular progressives have nothing going for you anymore. Not one.

    The republicans are winning the war, and spanking down islamo-facists. We have made the most robust stock market in decades, lowered unemployment, and stand firm for America safety. And soon Iran will be a glass ashtray!

    You will lose 2008, and you know it and hate it. So all you loons have left is to hate Bush until there is no more grissel on that bone, and then you will pick your next target.

    You suck as humans. The nation now sees right through you all!

    hahaha! It’s a great time to be republican!

  3. NewsstandGreg
    November 4, 2007 at 12:41 am

    Dave,

    Is it my mistaken impression, or are there a lot of silent listeners on this one?

    Have thoughtful conservatives been stumped for a reply?

    Where are the “freepers” and “ditto heads” with their usually snappy neocon talking points?

    Is this too taboo for reasonable people to debate?

    Or are we too embarrassed with this list of circumstances?

    If so, what should an American citizen do about it?

    Just sayin… –Newsstand Greg

  4. Rich from Paso
    November 4, 2007 at 1:31 am

    This is an old debate going back to a show Dave did on this very topic back in 06 with the exact same list of 10 signs of fascism. Dave’s guest was trying to make the point that, just as SM BIll is saying, that the Bush Administration is leading America down the path to be a fascist state. I countered that their are just as many signs pointing to the left’s attempts to remold America into a Communist state. If you are looking for signs of this, that, or the other thing, you will always find them if you hard enough or create a list of things that are self-evidently going on thus creating a self-fullfilling prophecy. I say that there are equal forces pulling America in both paths simultaneously and that there exists a balance between the two extremes of facsism and communism. There were just as many violations of the “10 signs” under Clinton as Bush. Actually, some were worse like Elian Gonzalez, Ruby Ridge and Waco where Americans were KILLED by this government. However, this is an old topic that will continue to be regugitated as long as Bush is in the White House.

    At any rate, SM Bill is a kook that still does not offer any citations for the theories and paranoia he rants on about. I have 100% more respect for Bob than Bill because at least Bob takes the effort to back up his claims with something other than shoddy debate tactics, logical fallacies, and more vitriol.

  5. Anonymous
    November 4, 2007 at 2:31 am

    Wow! Dave! You & bill make Bob look conservative!
    Seek balance dave. All this hate has altered your personality.
    Chill a bit, or you blow a gasket!

  6. Wilson
    November 4, 2007 at 4:20 am

    (8) Restrict the press

    I was told that HTR was not restricted by the the Bush Cheney neocon racists.
    True or False?
    Don’t give in Dave!

  7. the ghost of christmas past
    November 4, 2007 at 5:48 am

    OK, let’s take each of these and I’ll show you why SM Bill is a nut job.

    1) 9-11 was not created by Bush anymore than OK City bombing was created by Clinton. What was Bush supposed to do? Ignore it and hope the islamofacsists went away?

    2) G’itmo isn’t, nor ever was a secret. What was a secret, until the New York Times, the liberal rag that Bush is supposedly suppressing, put the fact that KSM and other really bad guys were being held in places like Poland so they could get the info out of them that they needed to stop the islamofascists that Bush was supposed to ignore before they strike us… again.

    3) Bush didn’t “develop” Blackwater. They are a private security firm that existed before Bush was elected president.

    4) The Eschelon program was develolped by the NSA and approved by President Clinton to do exactly that: spy on ordinary citizens. The domestic surveilence program only targets people answering phone calls from known al Qaida operatives. No one knows for sure that any of their conversations have ever been monitored. The Arabs that sued to stop it cited their ethnicity as the reason why they thought they would be candidates for surveilence. They racial profiled themselves. Either that or they have a guilty conscience. Say didn’t Hoover spy on MLK during the Kennedy administration? Guess that makes JFK a totalitarian.

    5) That is nothing like the FBI in every administration infiltrating the KKK, is it? Or the mafia?

    6) The only difference here between Bush and Clinton is that Clinton’s AG just had his marks rubbed out ala Ruby Ridge and Waco, whereas Bush simply “detains” them, gives them a Koran, the best food, medical care and living conditions given their crimes and asks them pointed questions. The cad!!!

    7) Which key individuals? That is nothing like the smear campaigns against Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’reilly is it? Or is Saddam hussein and Osama bin Hidin’ now considered “key individuals”? I thought you all were pissed off that Bush didn’t get that last “key individual”?

    8) The “fairness doctrine” isn’t restricting the press is it? Bush letting the NYT and others spread classified information everywhere is somehow “suppressing the press” but boycotting Fox News because they have a “conservative bias” isn’t?

    9) When you vociferously advocate for the defeat of America while her troops are in combat, accuse our military commanders fighting that war of being betrayers and letting our enemies know exact what we are doing to fight them here and abroad, you are close to treasonous in my book.

    10) I guess there is now a “controlling legal authority” to the Bush Administration that they are supposedly not living up to. Face facts, my liberal friends, the dark side of the moon isn’t as shady as the Clinton-Gore Administration was. Selling the Lincoln bedroom, pardoning convicted traitors, pardoning your convicted felon brother, encouraging one of your sycophants to steal and destroy classified information from the National Archives, raping women, lying to the American people and a grand jury, taking money from people who are supplying our enemies so you can get re-elected isn’t “subverting the law”, so you say.

    Looks like every president is leading America down the road to totalitarianism.

  8. Anonymous
    November 5, 2007 at 4:21 am

    A recent survey by the Field Poll in California last week found that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has a job approval rating of just 35 percent in her home state — and a disapproval rating of 40 percent.

    I told you the dems would crash & burn…You’re now watching it!

  9. Thomas W
    November 5, 2007 at 4:52 am

    Several things stick in my craw, and Dave, I think what we are missing here is the fact that the liberties President Bush has taken with our constitution in the name of National Security will be perpetuated by whoever is elected next. It won’t matter what party they are from because once a politician gets power, from whatever source, they will be unwilling to relinquish it. That is what is scary.
    To Great to be a republican; Don’t you see that by using such catch phrases as “radical left socialist” and “wackiest fruits” plus calling another human being names like “hellery” is the same kind of demeaning tactics used by Hitler and the Nazi’s. One would think that, in this day and age, you would have learned to behave in a civilized manner.
    A debate should be conducted in a manner that both sides can present their sides in civility and then other bloggers can weigh in, but when you call people names and denigrate them with foul nicknames, all you do is bring others down to your level. How about growing up a litte?
    Tom

  10. Dave Congalton
    November 5, 2007 at 5:19 am

    There have been several attempted posts lately that I’ve had to hit Reject; I suspect they’re all from the same person: can’t spell, silly arguments and deeply personal attacks. I don’t know how else to make it clear — please stick to arguments and stay away from the personal attacks.

    And it’s interesting how bloggers continue to take shots at SM Bill, but the ten criteria remain, as does my question: How many of these are in effect today? The answer is all ten.

    In terms of Pelosi’s popularity, I don’t recall her being the President. Check out today’s Washington Post. Here’s the summary of how the Bush administration is likely to be remembered in its waning months:

    “One year out from the 2008 election, Americans are deeply pessimistic and eager for a change in direction from the agenda and priorities of President Bush, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

    Concern about the economy, the war in Iraq and growing dissatisfaction with the political environment in Washington all contribute to the lowest public assessment of the direction of the country in more than a decade. Just 24 percent think the nation is on the right track, and three-quarters said they want the next president to chart a course that is different than that pursued by Bush.

    Overwhelmingly, Democrats want a new direction, but so do three-quarters of independents and even half of Republicans. Sixty percent of all Americans said they feel strongly that such a change is needed after two terms of the Bush presidency.

    Dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq remains a primary drag on public opinion, and Americans are increasingly downcast about the state of the economy. More than six in 10 called the war not worth fighting, and nearly two-thirds gave the national economy negative marks. The outlook going forward is also bleak: About seven in 10 see a recession as likely over the next year.”

  11. joe M
    November 5, 2007 at 10:16 am

    Change does not necessarily equal “Democrat”; change here just means no more Bush, which they will have in January 2009.

  12. Anonymous
    November 5, 2007 at 3:22 pm

    Dave,
    Censor all you want, and for whatever reason, but that does not, nor will it ever, change the fact that not everyone agrees with you & your buddy Bill!

    In fact, given this blog topic very few agree with you. It’s fringe thinking, and not at all based in fact but rather opinion.

    You state Dave: “How many of these are in effect today? The answer is all ten.”
    Are you willing to hang your journalistic career on this statement? Wow! That in itself speaks volumes.

    As for personal attacks, let’s look to this blog topic for examples of what you “cleared for posting” so others can see the standards;
    1) Get a life Dave and bill…you are so pathetic
    2) You suck as humans
    3) Where are the “freepers” and “ditto heads” with their usually snappy “neocon” talking points?
    4) SM Bill is a kook
    5) I’ll show you why SM Bill is a nut job.
    6) One would think that, in this day and age, you would have learned to behave in a civilized manner. Grow up!
    7) Can’t spell, silly arguments

    So there you have it! These statements were allowed by the blog master, some made by him and yet he also goes on to state:
    ” I don’t know how else to make it clear — please stick to arguments and stay away from the personal attacks.”

    Dave, when you yourself are doing the attacking and you are allowing your “buddies” to say whatever they want just because they agree with you, can’t you see the hypocrisy? Can’t you see that you yourself are part of the problem?
    Push back the chair…turn off your computer. Nobody wants the hate rants from the left anymore. It’s old news! So “yesterday”. Stay with current topics.

    Like this one…
    Pelosi’s ratings are in the tank and headed down fast along with her pal Reid. Yet you comment that “she is not president”. Dave! Come on! She is 2 heart beats away from being the president!
    You just hate that “your” house & senate are the laughing stock and it’s getting worse…so you take all the cheap shots you want with some fringe rhetoric about America becoming a totalitarian state, but it doesn’t change reality! Dems are crashing, and you can’t stop it.

    With all due respect Dave, there are for more important topics to be discussing, that’s why conservative talk radio is at an all time high, because that is where people are going for the truth these days.
    Think about it. Hating Bush is so over!

    Ps: I think you would be blown away with how many bloggers here keep in touch by email…so we all know what is not getting posted, and what is getting censored. You can’t stop truth.

  13. not bleak at all
    November 5, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    Dave said:
    “The outlook going forward is also bleak: About seven in 10 see a recession as likely over the next year.”

    Bleak Dave? Bleak?

    Here is the truth!

    Recession UNLIKELY in next year: U.S. Chamber
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Problems in the U.S. subprime mortgage market are unlikely to push the U.S. economy into a recession over the next 12 months, the top economist for a leading U.S. business group said on Tuesday.

    “It’s clear over the last year-and-a-half the economy has downshifted and things are not doing quite as well. But having said (that), I don’t think we’re on the precipice of a recession,” said Martin Regalia, vice president for economic policy at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

    Regalia said that, in his opinion, problems caused by bad loans made in the subprime market were not spreading to broader housing or overall debt markets.
    *************************

    I guess it’s just a matter of where you get your news…and who is surprized by that?

  14. Chuck from Atascadero
    November 5, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    First, let me say that I appreciate what Dave is trying to do with this blog and I’m glad we have the chance to discuss major issues. I post from time to time, but mostly I enjoy reading the other comments, well, most of them. I don’t understand why some of you have to take all this so personally and use it as the opportunity to beat up on Dave and take swipes at him. He’s just posting different topics. He must have a thick skin.

    Normally, I agree with Dave, but with these Ten Signs of whatever, I’m not so sure. It all comes down to context. Yes, these ten points are probably all in play to some degree right now, but I think it’s a fallacy to assume that just because we have these ten, therefore we have a totalitarian
    government.

    I submit what we have is a WAR TIME government. What we’re doing now is consistent with what we do when we’re at war. We did the same thing doing World War I and World War II. We probably did it during Viet Nam. Remember what Lincoln did during the Civll War.

    The one concern I do have it that there is no rollback of these policies. The War on Terror is open ended. Could go on for decades. I personally blame Dick Cheney and would like to see someone in office more sympathetic to the rights of the individual.

  15. Thomas W
    November 6, 2007 at 3:17 am

    Thank you, Chuck.
    Well reasoned,well thought out. I agree that some of what Bill said is overreaching, however, like you, I worry about the future holders of that great office. Will they return some of the powers assumed by this administration or will they also want to hang on to them?
    Tom

  16. save muslim women & children & gays
    November 6, 2007 at 3:21 am

    Chuck, you are so right! The war on islamo-fascism is open ended.
    It’s over when they have wiped out every jew on the planet and converted or killed the western democracies!

    They don’t want to negotiate. They don’t care how acdepting and understanding you are. They want you DEAD!

    And until we tame this wackaloon religion it will be open ended.
    We must do it for our safety, for the safety of other races and religions and most of all we must do it for the women and children they oppress and kill and the gays they behead!

    That is a noble cause. Who could disagree? If you disagree what child or women would you watch killed because her husband said so? Which one could you watch be killed?

  17. Downtown Bob
    November 6, 2007 at 6:57 am

    The vitriol spewed forth as an attempt to diminish the impact of what has been happening to our Constitutional rights would be amusing if this wasn’t so serious situation. Point by point, a little observation to share:
    1.) I don’t believe that President Bush had any foreknowledge of the attacks on 9/11; it is very curious however that all normal responses to “unusual” incidents concerning air traffic were either told to stand down or were on “training” exercises. None the less, 9/11 was convenient for President Bush as he as gained in stature and the powers he has gathered up in his “quest” to fight terrorism. Coincidence?
    2.) Secret Prisons: Read the link. Guantanamo Bay is not the only prison the US has been using for “terrorists” suspects.
    3.) Blackwater USA wasn’t formed until 1997, and didn’t grow to what it is now until it reorganized in 2002 as Blackwater Security Consulting (BSC) when it started getting its no-bid contracts. Up until recently there has not been any accounting for the actions of any of its personnel as there has been no law that they have been held to. That is about to change.
    4.) Yes, Echelon was approved by Clinton; President Bush has advanced the secret spying on US citizens-School of the Americas Watch and (read the link) a Quaker peace group were targeted by the FBI. These are not violent groups like militia groups or racial hate groups, these are normal citizens who want the United States to be the great nation that it can be, by doing the right thing, and torture is not the right thing. Period.
    5.) Read number four.
    6.) How many men and boys of middle eastern descent were rounded up and questioned after 9/11? How many were charged of anything?
    7.) 700,000 are on “watch lists”; one of the founders of CodePink was not allowed into Canada recently to speak, because she is on a watch list. Link here to read about it.
    8.) Restrict the Press. Muzzle them by intimidation is more like it. Having corporate owners of most of the media certainly helps. How many of the White House Press Corp dare “rock the boat” by doing some actual reporting on the actions of the Bush Administration? They are too entrenched and don’t want to lose access, which would mean their job.
    9.) Two words: Fox News
    10.) Subvert the rule of law: Mukasey testifying before Congress, stating that he wasn’t sure if waterboarding was torture. Huh? If that isn’t a sidestep, I don’t know what is.
    Rich, which politician is leading the “path to communism” in your opinion? I defy you to name a Democratic Presidential candidate that is pushing for a communist state. I will admit that a few have “socialist” leanings, but that is not the same as communism.
    Chuck from Atascadero, you are right, the “War on Terror”© is open ended, as is the “war on drugs”; open ended, working as major drain on our military as it is a drain on our financial well being. Noticed how well our dollar is doing lately?

  18. Rich from Paso
    November 6, 2007 at 11:44 am

    Bob,

    1997 occurred during the Clinton Administration, not the Bush Administration, in case you were still under a rock that year.

    #6 Yes, Bob, exactly how many men and boys of Middle Eastern decent were rounded up? Don’t ask the question if you aren’t going to answer it.

    #7 After what Code Pink has done (slandering military recruiters, assaulting Condi, protesting soldiers, etc) I don’t lose sleep because she couldn’t go to Canada of all places.

    #8 Again you insinuate that the Bush Administration somehow is keeping the press from reporting about it is so delusional it is funny. So there should be more stories about how bad the Bush Administration is in the NYT and on every network news cast. What’s a matter? Is a negative Bush story every 3 minutes not enough to sate your Bush hatred?

    #9 Fox News?!?! Fox News?!?! Is that all you got? I have four words for you: lame, tired, worn out You like Keith Olberman, that Cafferty guy and they aren’t left-wing partisan nut jobs? MSNBC and CNN are just as much organs of the DNC if Fox News is an organ of the RNC.

    #10 I’m not sure waterboarding is torture. Tell you what, I’ll make you a deal: I agree to be “waterboarded” for 2 minutes and 30 seconds just like KSM and I will tell you whether or not it is torture. No one has ever died from waterboarding so I’m not worried about that. No one has ever reported of permanent scares, either physical or psychological, from it, or at least from what John McCain has said. Sound good?

    The War on Terror is not as opened as the War on Poverty that has cost us $8 Trillion, has lasted for 45 years and we are no closer to ending that war.

    The weak dollar has more to do with the price of oil and Iran than the Iraq War, Bob.

    The politician leading us to a communist state is none other than Hillary Clinton. By the way, I did listen to what John Edwards had to say on This Week and I do find him more straight forward and therefore more exceptable than Hillary Clinton. I still would not vote for him and I don’t think he has a snowball’s chance in hell of winning, but he is a far more acceptable candidate than Hillary will ever be to me.

  19. Rich from Paso
    November 6, 2007 at 11:51 am

    One question: If torture is ineffective, why has ever major culture in the history of the human race found resons and means to carry it out? There is something that just smacks as inherently false when people say that torture fails to get the exact information out of the person they are torturing. I know you want to, but don’t misunderstand me: I don’t condone torture. But to say that waterboarding and all “aggressive interogation techniques” automatically qualifies as torture is just too much of a stretch to believed. George Tenet himself said that the best intel they gathered was from these “aggressive interogation techniques”.

  20. Marilyn
    November 6, 2007 at 6:29 pm

    In answer to Bob’s #6, 1200 men and boys of Arab and Middle Eastern descent were rounded up and held without charge and without access to attorneys or their families. An additional 13,000 were held for “9-11 charges,” but those charges turned out to be minor visa violations. Most of those people were deported. This came about after the government asked all non-citizens belonging to specific Middle Eastern countries to “register.” 82,000 men and boys registered per the request.

    To this day, only one person, Zacarias Moussaoui, has stood trial and been convicted of actual terrorism charges. He was arrested in Minnesota in August 0f 2001. His trial transcript, by the way, is the only one in U.S. history that has been posted on line.

    The freak and fascist show has just begun with the cheering of our freakish elected officials like Rudy Giuliani. I hope no one is rooting for that basket case. Honestly, does this not remind people of that mob that ruled Germany during the Nazi era? They were all freaks.

    Many of the U.S. detainees have already been released, but the issue is that because of the secret detentions and prisons, no one knows where these people are. Many are facing brutal treatment within U.S. prisons and torture after we hand them over to other governments, the same governments whose police we trained in subversive and torture techniques.

    This is a profile of one of those still detained at Guantanamo this time. I am sure many have heard of the many stories of men “wrongly” detained. Let us not forget the children detained in Iraq and used as a bargaining chip against their fathers to get them to give information.

  21. Downtown Bob
    November 6, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    Rich: Yes yes yes 1997 was during the Clinton Administration; please note that Blackwater USA was not a major player in security until they reorganized in 2002 as Blackwater Security Consulting (BSC), and then they became the major player they are in the “security consulting” field. George Bush was the President in 2002, fyi.
    Thank you Marilyn for your information concerning the numbers of men and boys detained and questioned after 9/11. Rich, that should answer your question.
    No matter what you think of CodePink, their actions, their members; to have individuals on watch lists so that they may not travel out of the country is exactly what point number seven was addressing.
    Rich, concerning the reporting of how bad a job President Bush is doing; I don’t care how “bad” a job he is or isn’t doing- there is no reporting on mainstream media of the laws President Bush has violated, showing evidence of what was done, when it was done and what it means to have our chief executive violating the very laws he swore an oath to uphold. That is what is not being reported, that is what the reporters are being held back on reporting on.
    9.) Cast criticism as espionage, or dissent as treason- Watch how Fox News reports on the introduction of impeachment articles by Rep. Kucinich. Fair and balanced? Or will they paint him as a lunatic, someone desperate to attract attention, or will they imply that he is a “traitor”?
    Rich, I have no doubt that you would submit yourself to a waterboarding demonstration. I assume that you would agree to have a group of professional military conduct the demonstration, but I wonder how you would feel if you were abducted and waterboarded by persons unknown, which could be a hostile enemy. Would you be so comfortable in knowing that you wouldn’t drown?
    The war on poverty, the war on drugs, the war on terrorism; you don’t see any correlation or comparison?
    The weak dollar; yeah, the price of oil is a prime factor in the position of the dollar. The main question is why is the price of oil so volatile right now. Our involvement in Iraq is a prime reason that the price of oil is rising so quickly, our threats against Iran are another, but both are actions that have been taken by our government. And George Bush was an oil man at one time. It is all related.
    As for George Tenant speaking on the validity of “aggressive interrogation techniques”, aka torture, why does almost every single other professional intelligence agency state that torture never gets the results that they can count on?

  22. Marilyn
    November 6, 2007 at 11:31 pm

    To clarify my last post:

    There are both U.S. and non-U.S. citizens detained under the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.

    Because such detentions are secretive in nature, there is no way to find out who the detainees are, what their status is, which country they are currently housed in, and if they are being tortured or not (but the logical inference is that if we handed them over to another country, they are being tortured because that supposedly releases the United States from criminal legal liability).

    The facts speak for themselves as the citizens of many countries who have been tortured and released and talked about their ordeal indicate.

    It is easy to minimize the misfortune of others but things will feel much more urgent when the injustice committed is against our own.

    Amnesty International Report

  23. Anonymous
    November 7, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    How many of the ten on the list were present during WWII? All of them. How many of the ten on the list will be present after next years election? All ten. It doesn’t matter who is in the White House.

  24. golfingslo
    November 7, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Just so everyone knows, it was Governor Blanco and her administration who hired Blackwater after Katrina, not the Fed’s as Bill claimed last week.

  25. Anonymous
    November 8, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    marilyn,
    As much as you may not like it, we are at war.
    Secondly we are safe from those islamo-fascists, and have been for over 5 years.

    A terrorist has no civil rights in our America, and never will!

    3000+ that dies in those towers had no rights. It’s an eye for an eye.

  26. Marilyn
    November 8, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    To anonymous:

    Whatever floats your boat.

    In the future, when the government and the rest of the world declare war on Christiano-fascists and they sweep up an innocent majority in the process here and abroad, we will all say, oh well! A fair price to pay for freedom!

    After all, we do not tolerate terrorism in the greatest democracy in the world.

  27. Wilson
    November 9, 2007 at 4:35 am

    Thank you marilyn, you’re a GREAT AMERICAN!

  28. read it and weap
    November 9, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    Lieberman Bashes Paranoid Democrats

    Friday, November 9, 2007 9:22 AM

    Sen. Joe Lieberman lashed out at what he called the democrats’ “politically paranoid, hyper-partisan” liberal base, which he charges is more interested in opposing Republicans that promoting a strong foreign policy.

    “For many Democrats, the guiding conviction in foreign policy isn’t pacifism or isolationism, it is distrust and disdain of Republicans in general.

    “In this regard, the Democratic foreign policy worldview is based on a blind opposition to the president, even when it means repudiating the very principles and policies that Democrats as a party have stood for, at our best and strongest…

    “I felt strongly that Democrats should embrace the basic framework that the president articulated for the war on terror as our own — because it was our own … But that was not the choice most Democrats made. Instead, they flip-flopped.

    “Even as evidence has mounted that General Petraeus’ new counterinsurgency strategy is succeeding, Democrats have remained emotionally invested in a narrative of defeat and retreat in Iraq, reluctant to acknowledge the progress we are now achieving, or even that that progress has enabled us to begin drawing down our troops there.”

    Lieberman went on to say:.

    “There is something profoundly wrong — something that should trouble all of us — when we have elected Democratic officials who seem more worried about how the Bush administration might respond to Iran’s murder of our troops, than about the fact that Iran is murdering our troops,”

    “There is likewise something profoundly wrong when we see candidates who are willing to pander to this politically paranoid, hyper-partisan sentiment in the Democratic base, even if it sends a message of weakness and division to the Iranian regime.”

  29. Anonymous
    November 10, 2007 at 4:30 am

    Why is the left wing MSM, the radical left and the top 3 dem candidates running against Bush?

    He is out in 08…What’s the point?

    I guess it’s like Leiberman said…They are hatefully focused on Bush to the point they will even comprimize our country.

    ABC news the other night…Charlie the anchor actually said “The news this week on Iraq is that is no news”…That’s as far as anyone would go, but the truth be known is that surge is working brilliantly and there were NO deaths in Iraq last week.

    Why do the dems hate our military so much? Why do thye want us to lose this war so badly?

  30. Anonymous
    November 11, 2007 at 1:03 am

    Let’s talk about a real totalitarian state! Read on…

    Islam:

    Since 9/11, numerous Western leaders have insisted that Islam is a peaceful religion, and that violence committed in its name contradicts the teachings of the Koran and the example of the prophet Muhammad. But is this true? Islam is, in fact, a violent and expansionist religion that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths, cultures, and systems of government.

    facts about Islam:

    Warfare — even terrorism — in the name of Islam stems directly from the teachings and example of the Prophet Muhammad and the commands of the Koran

    The truth about Muhammad: a warlord with the blood of thousands on his hands — and how Muslims are expected to follow his example.

    The Koran — considered by Muslims to be dictated word for word by Allah — explicitly commands violence against non-Muslims who resist conversion or surrender

    “Jihad”: an “inner struggle” over temptation, as some Muslim apologists claim? Not so: how the Koran makes it clear it denotes warfare against non-Muslims in order to bring about the universal rule of Islamic law

    Violent death in jihad is, according to the Koran, the only assurance of salvation

    Following Muhammad’s death, his ‘rightly-guided’ successors carried his wars to three continents — fighting, enslaving, and massacring countless Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and others

    The Crusades, mischaracterized as a violent assault on peaceful Muslims, were largely a belated response against centuries of Muslim conquest of Christian lands

    The Islamic principle of ‘religious deception’ — which enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims to advance the cause of Islam — and how Muslim groups use it today

    Throughout its history, Islam has never recognized a distinction between religious and civil authority

    Islamic “sharia” law governs every aspect of religious, political, and personal life — amounting to a form of totalitarianism analogous to Communism

    We need to know our enemy if we are to defeat them! Don’t be misled, we must & will win this war on terror!

    violence against non-Muslims is and has always been an integral aspect of Islam.

    I dare anyone to disprove these facts.

  31. Marilyn
    November 11, 2007 at 1:16 am

    Dave,

    I would like to address an issue that may be related to Bill’s #3 and which I touched on very briefly on your show when talking about the mapping of Muslim neighborhoods in LA.

    I think the War on Terror and other disasters are being used to push more privatization of public resources for the benefit of corporations. Naomi Klein discusses that extensively in her book, The Shock Doctrine. She also addressed it on Democracy Now with Amy Goodman a few days ago.

    Klein talks about the rapture policies, the privatization of the public sector by exaggerating the shortfalls of government supported organizatios like FEMA and the National Guard, as well as the military, and by selling the role of private companies in man-made and natural disasters (wars and fires and floods). Everything has been privatized at this point in time, including public utilities, communications, water, security, etc. The only areas left are law enforcement and organizations that deal with public assistance.

    Disaster Capitalism is what Klein is talking about. We saw it during and after Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.

    It is also taking place across the world. There is not enough time to mention what is going on, but the U.S. government and the World Bank are meddling in the affairs of smaller nations forcing them to privatize their public utilities and open them up for bidding (Lebanon is one that is currently facing cellular phone and electric power privatization through the insistence of the United States and multi-national corporation).

    Corp Watch has a good expose on what is going on.

    I would really recommend Naomi Klein’s book. I haven’t read it myself, but I have listened to Klein on many occasions and she is right on the “money.”

    I would not be surprised if private companies are hired to “map” LA.

    Also, read Klein’s article Rapture Rescue 911: Disaster Response for the Chosen.

    Aren’t War and misery great for business!

    Terrorism is good for certain businesses.

  32. Marilyn
    November 12, 2007 at 4:44 am

    This is the link to the article by Naomi Klein on U.S.A.: A Form of Disaster Capitalism is Reshaping Societies to Its Own Design.

    Sorry for the earlier non-functioning link for Corps Watch.

  33. map away
    November 12, 2007 at 11:44 pm

    Given the facts posted above about Islam we’d better be mapping every city in America! And do it fast!

    These islamo-fascists need to be identified and watched. No doubt about it. With the guru of their religeon telling them to “convert or kill” we’d better be prepared to “Iodentify or die”

    I have no problem at all mapping any and all that preach death and terrorism, and particularly a religeon that will stone a woman to death because her husband says so, or cuts off the heads of gays because they are gay!

    Map away, with my blessings!

  34. Hoosier21
    November 16, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    Paso Bob is correct. Just a rehash of the tired, lame argument that conservatives want to move to facism. All we want is to keep the constitutional principles and ideals of capitalism, individual freedom and responsibility, and minimal government interference that our country was founded on. This does not mean moving the country to the right, but rather keeping it where it was 50 years ago. We do not wish to become a nanny state where the government takes control of our personal lives and deciding what is best. We do not believe that the European style of socialism is the right direction for this country. It is not our wish to make this a fascist, Marxist, communist, or any other type of country. We don’t want to change, it is only the left that wants to change our government, ideals, and values.

  35. Anonymous
    November 19, 2007 at 6:31 am

    I would love to see SM Bob give proof of his evidence, even If it is to Dave and put the questions to rest. Bob must have some sources, Post them here, lets see what they are and were they truely come from. The problem about an emotional arguement is you get hot and yelling and it turns into a name calling forum. If Bob is so right then why is he only saying so on your show? I know of a few dozen paper and other media outlets that would love to prove him right (or wrong). Bob gives a good snake oil argument, but lets see the labels and the proof. That would put the matter clearly in the people’s court do decided the validatity of the information.

  36. Anonymous
    December 9, 2007 at 12:56 am

    WHICH OF THESE HAVE WE NOT SEEN SINCE THE NATION’S BEGINNINGS?

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