Home > Uncategorized > Iraq After Saddam — Now What?

Iraq After Saddam — Now What?

OK, so they executed Saddam Hussein today. We invaded a country, totally destabilized it, helped the puppet Iraqi government track down and try Hussein and then made sure he was executed. And, please believe me, I’m no fan of the guy. He won’t be missed. He was a butcher. But he also knew how to hold the country together and keep it from splitting into civil war — a lesson that George W. Bush hasn’t quite figured out.

But does anyone believe the events of today will change anything in Iraq? Is there anyone not expecting civil unrest in response to the execution? Plus, there’s the new poll out from Military Times showing that the majority of U.S. troops believe President Bush is mishandling the war.

This is what the N.Y. Times said on Friday in an editorial called “The Rush to Hang Saddam”:

“The important question was never really about whether Saddam Hussein was guilty of crimes against humanity. The public record is bulging with the lengthy litany of his vile and unforgivable atrocities: genocidal assaults against the Kurds; aggressive wars against Iran and Kuwait; use of internationally banned weapons like nerve gas; systematic torture of countless thousands of political prisoners.

What really mattered was whether an Iraq freed from his death grip could hold him accountable in a way that nurtured hope for a better future. A carefully conducted, scrupulously fair trial could have helped undo some of the damage inflicted by his rule. It could have set a precedent for the rule of law in a country scarred by decades of arbitrary vindictiveness. It could have fostered a new national unity in an Iraq long manipulated through its religious and ethnic divisions.

It could have, but it didn’t. After a flawed, politicized and divisive trial, Mr. Hussein was handed his sentence: death by hanging. This week, in a cursory 15-minute proceeding, an appeals court upheld that sentence and ordered that it be carried out posthaste. Most Iraqis are now so preoccupied with shielding their families from looming civil war that they seem to have little emotion left to spend on Mr. Hussein or, more important, on their own fading dreams of a new and better Iraq.

What might have been a watershed now seems another lost opportunity. After nearly four years of war and thousands of American and Iraqi deaths, it is ever harder to be sure whether anything fundamental has changed for the better in Iraq.

This week began with a story of British and Iraqi soldiers storming a police station that hid a secret dungeon in Basra. More than 100 men, many of them viciously tortured, were rescued from almost certain execution. It might have been a story from the final days of Baathist rule in March 2003, when British and American troops entered Basra believing they were liberating the subjugated Shiite south. But it was December 2006, and the wretched men being liberated were prisoners of the new Iraqi Shiite authorities.

Toppling Saddam Hussein did not automatically create a new and better Iraq. Executing him won’t either.”

So let’s hear from the usual suspects. Was the execution the right thing to do? What happens now in Iraq?

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  1. Anonymous
    December 30, 2006 at 7:27 am

    The “Butcher of Baghdad” is dead at the end of a rope!

    The 1.5 million murdered by this brutal dictator are avenged!

    Let this be a lesson to all evil dictators…justice will prevail!

    God Bless America!

  2. Guy Murray
    December 30, 2006 at 8:09 am

    Dave asks Now What?

    Well, my hope is that the government of Iraq will take responsibility for their own country and destiny so that our brave young servicemen and woman can stop spilling their blood for this ill conceived debacle of nation building.

    No doubt that Saddam was not a nice guy. I don’t see how his death will make one whit of difference in Iraq’s future. Sure, it may make the cowboy from Crawford feel a bit more macho–but I don’t see how it makes me safer here on California’s Central Coast. Nor, do I see how it does anything positive for anyone else.

  3. Lloyd
    December 30, 2006 at 4:07 pm

    Sadaam was not the problem, they should have strung up that beady eyed bastard bush and his sidekick cheney.

  4. JerryDinAZ
    December 30, 2006 at 4:34 pm

    FIRST OF ALL…LET’S GET A FEW THINGS STRAIGHT.
    1) THE NEW YORK TIMES HAS NO JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY LEFT. IT SERVES THE SECULAR PROGRESSIVES AS THEIR PUPPET. SO WHAT THEY SAY HAS NO VALUE BUT TO COLLECT BIRD CRAP AT THE BOTTOM OF IT’S CAGE.

    2) THE USA DIDN’T DESTABILIZE IRAQ. SADDAM DID! MURDERING 2 MILLION IRAQIS, INCLUDING HIS CLOSE FAMILY MEMBERS WAS THE MAIN FACTOR.

    3) HE HAD AND WAS DEVELOPING MORE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE HE USED THEM ON THE CURDS…THE REST ARE STILL BURIED IN THE SYRIAN DESSERT. FACT! FACT! FACT!

    3) THE BRAVE AND COURAGEOUS BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAS A PLAN AND WE WILL WIN IN IRAQ. LEFTY SP’s DON’T WANT THAT BECAUSE THEY HATE BUSH MORE THAN THEY LOVE FREEDOM

    4) MANY IRAQIS WILL NOW BE FREE FRO THE FEAR THAT SOMEHOW SADDAM WOULD RETURN TO POWER. THEY CAN NOW MOVE ON IN DESIGNING THEIR FUTURE UNDER A FREEDOM PROVIDED BY OUR BRAVE SOLDIERS!

    GIVE IRAQ A CHANCE! HUNDREDS OF YEARS AFTER OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH MANY ISSUES AND WE ARE THE RICHEST COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. WE KILLED EACH OTHER IN ONE OF THE BLOODIEST CIVIL WARS IN HISTORY…

    SO RELAX ALL YOU BUSH HATERS. IRAQ IS AND WILL BE FREE. MILLIONS MORE WILL NOT BE SLAUGHTERED BY AN INSANE DICTATOR. THEIR YOUNG DEMOCRACY WILL STRUGGLE, AS DID OURS, BUT IT WILL SURVIVE. TO THEIR BENEFIT AND FOR THE SECURITY OF THE REGION AND THE WORLD.

    IF ALL YOU RADICAL SP’s WOULD JUST GO GET A NEW HOBBY AND LET US RUN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE MILITARY, AND HELP IRAQ THINGS WOULD GO SMOOTHER.

    WAS KILLING SADDAM THE RIGHT THING TO DO? THE QUESTION SICKENS ME THAT IT EVEN HAS TO BE ASKED! ALL THOSE THAT ASK THAT QUESTION SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES, AND QUITE POSSIBLY NEED TO FIND A NEW COUNTRY TO LIVE IN. IF YOU CANT STAND WHEN THE RIGHT THING IS DONE…WE REALLY DON’T WANT YOU HERE!

    SO SADDAM? LIL WARM DOWN THERE? NO VIRGINS? NEXT TIME LISTEN TO US…WE KNOW THE TRUTH, AND WE COULD HAVE SAVED YOUR ETERNAL SOUL…

  5. Jay from Oceano
    December 30, 2006 at 7:27 pm

    It’s funny that when people point out that Saddam was able to keep Iraq stable, they don’t elaborate on HOW he was able to keep it stable(!). If Saddam was allowed to live, he would have been a rallying point for every group that wants to overthrow the current or future political leadership, evn if that future leadership is hostile to the U.S.

    On a more cynical note, if he had been left alive, the political left would have been able to use him as an example of the political rights policy failures in Iraq. That’s not saying they still won’t, but I am sick of hearing how Bush failed to get Osama and am glad not to hear how Bush failed to get Saddam.

  6. Marilyn Farhat
    December 30, 2006 at 8:04 pm

    The Middle East has been in turmoil since the beginning of the 20th century and not because they cannot live together peacefully. History has shown they could. They have been struggling because imperial colonialists like Britain, France, the USSR, the United States, and Israel will just not leave them alone. We are equally complicit in the murder of the 1.5 million Iraqis and the 600 thousand killed in the last decade just as much as Saddam is.

    People seem to forget about how we got to this tragedy in the first place and who it is that installed and supported those tyrants before they started killing off their own people.

  7. Marilyn Farhat
    December 30, 2006 at 8:28 pm

    Dave,

    To address your question, now what? It is the same answer many have given. Negotiation and compromise seem to work best best in Middle Eastern and multi-religious and multi-ethnic societies. Democratic voting is not always a good idea in diverse societies because the slight majority will always dictate to the rest of the country. Look at our poor people and the minorities in the United States. In a nation that consumes the most of world resources, we still do not have affordable health care for 50 million Americans and we continue to have individuals and working families living on the streets because they do not make enough money to even rent a place, but they are hard working people. Look also at the degree of violence against women in the U.S. Domestic violence statistics have shown that most women who are killed are killed by male relatives or close males. We certainly are not in a position to teach any other country anything. What we have to do is lead by example.

    Democracies or any other political agenda cannot be forced upon people. The people in the Middle East attempted democracies, socialist, communists, religious states, etc. None worked because they did not take into account the political and tribal systems that existed there in the first place and all emerging democracies after centuries of Ottoman and colonial rule were crushed with our help. Two cases come to mind, Iran and Iraq. There were other democratic movements emerging across the Middle East but they were marginalized by our meddling to install, support, finance, and continue to arm tyrannical regimes as they continued to imprison, torture, or murder any voices of dissent. THAT is where we are culpable. Our interventions in the region are based on the politics of greed in consumption and control.

    What needs to be done now is get all the countries in the Middle East involved in a solution that benefits Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian, the nations who are currently being targeted by Bush and is NeoCon buddies for fragmentation and destabilization.

    I have no faith in this government because of the underlying racism that emanates from it towards the average person in the Middle East.

    People in the Middle East are becoming radicalized because they have learned that they cannot trust their leaders because their leaders are in bed with the colonial powers that have been oppressing them for generations.

    The idiots in all the born-again think tanks really have no grasp of the history or the psychology of the Middle East and their approach is “might is right.” At the same time, they continue to be critical of the Middle Eastern non-governmental resistance groups when they try to fight back using the same tactics. We cannot encourage the killing of innocent people and feel outraged when the same is done to us.

    In Iraq, all ethnic and religious groups need to feel that they have redress and need to feel that they are heard and their grievances acknowledged and corrected. All people need to have a say in the running of their country, no matter how small their number. THAT is consensus and that is the wise way to rule.

    But I seem to forget: there is no wisdom in colonialism and war, only theft and the loss of human life.

  8. JerryDinAZ
    December 30, 2006 at 8:50 pm

    IF MARILYN SAID THAT ABOUT THE IRAQ GOVERNMENT SHE WOULD BE DEAD BEFORE THE INK DRIED…

    YOU ENJOY THE FREEDOM WE PROVIDE AND THEN HAVE THE AUDACITY TO QUESTION THE MANNER IN WHICH WE PROVIDE IT! TRY PICKING UP A GUN AND STANDING A POST…THEN LET’S TALK!

    SO WHICH PART DON’T YOU GET?

    YOU THINK ISLAM A PEACEFUL RELIGION???

    WELL, MILLIONS OF THESE SONS-OF-BITCHES ARE PLOTTING AS WE SPEAK
    TO DESTROY OUR COUNTRY AND OUR WAY OF LIFE ANY WAY THEY CAN. SOME OF THEM ARE HERE AMONG US NOW.
    THEY DON’T WANT TO CONVERT YOU AND DON’T WANT TO RULE YOU. YOU ARE A VILE INFESTATION OF ALLAH’S PARADISE.
    THEY DON’T GIVE A SHIT HOW “PROGRESSIVE” YOU ARE,
    HOW PEACE-LOVING YOU ARE, OR HOW MUCH YOU SYMPATHIZE WITH THEIR CAUSE.

    THEY WANT YOU DEAD, AND THINK IT IS GOD’S WILL FOR THEM TO DO IT.

    AND YOU THINK BUSH AND CHENEY ARE YOUR WORST ENEMIES? ON THE CONTRARY! IT’S MEN LIKE THEM WITH GUTS AND COURAGE THAT KEEP YOU ALIVE!

    SOME THINK IF WE GIVE THEM A HUG OR LISTEN TO THEM,THEN THEY’LL LIKE US… AND IF YOU AGREE?
    THEN YOU ARE A “D”UMB ASS!

    IF THEY MANAGE TO GET THEIR HANDS ON A NUKE, CHEMICAL AGENTS, OR EVEN SOME ANTHRAX — YOU WILL WISH TO GOD WE HAD HUNTED THEM DOWN
    AND KILLED THEM WHILE WE HAD THE CHANCE.

    STOP BITCHIN ABOUT YOUR DAMN HEALTH CARE, SOCIAL SECURITY, GAS PRICES, AND YOUR MEASLY 4.25% UNEMPLOYMENT RATE…AND START WORRYING ABOUT YOU, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, AND YOUR COUNTRY!

    HOW MANY MORE AMERICANS MUST BE BEHEADED BEFORE YOU STOP BLAMING BUSH FOR ALL YOUR TROUBLES —
    YOU’VE FALLEN ASLEEP… AGAIN!
    WAKE UP OH SLEEPY SECULAR PROGRESSIVES! YOU MAY NOT GET ANOTHER CHANCE!

  9. David Abdul
    December 30, 2006 at 9:40 pm

    Anti-Muslim sentiment constitutes “the last sanctioned racism.” Please do not give in to these racist people and their ways.

  10. Marilyn Farhat
    December 30, 2006 at 10:57 pm

    It is so apt that the racists tout us about the freedoms we have but then call us “dumb asses” for exercising those same freedoms.

    Well, which is it? Are we free or aren’t we? Are you advocating that we forfeit our freedom of speech and action because you (and you know who you are) do not agree with what we are saying or doing? Just who do you think YOU are? God? Or maybe another tyrant?

    Maybe we should put the Christiano-faschists in power in the US and then they will show their true colors when they start putting people to death for being “Liberal” or homosexual, or for voicing dissent. Those possibilities have been discussed since 9-11 and there are many in this country who believe that people should be put to death for those reasons.

    My duty as a hardworking, tax-paying, American citizen is to be involved politically and socially with issues that impact Americans. Are you saying that dealing with our social problems should come to a halt because we are in Iraq right now? What if we are in Iraq for 30 years? It looks like it right now. I wonder how the women in this country (the 52% of the population) would feel about that?

    Who ARE the tyrants now? If we are to behave like Saddam and other dictators, why are we bellowing about how bad they are? Or is it about US being in control?

    But that IS racism isn’t it? And the true hatred is for Islam and the people of the Middle East. It is also contempt for the female of our species; a contempt that is shown by the ridicule leveled at the women of this country who are trying hard to keep a modicum of sanity in all this and who are hardworking and trying to raise their families while their husbands are at war. That is why it is so easy to stomach the slaughter over there, including the slaughter of our own men and the minimizing of the rape and murder of women in the United States.

    But I guess anyone who believes that it is o.k. for working women and children to be homeless and eat out of garbage cans and for women to be murdered by their husbands would probably not bat an eyelid if soldiers and civilians are killed in an illegal war. They do not even think about the tens of thousands of veterans who are permanently disabled as a result of this war. Those poor sods have served their purpose and are not the masculine studs we were cheering on to war. They are the true reality of the war we do not want to think about.

    I think as a democracy, we should take a vote: should all those in favor of this war line up and sign up for a flack jacket and get themselves to Iraq and give the troops over there a break?

    After all, you ARE “supporting the troops” aren’t you? They would rather have you do that than send them lolly-pops and phone cards. Why can’t they be home for Christmas to be with their families?

    And, sirs, we are more at risk of annihilating this country from over-borrowing, overconsumption and creating bad will across the world than we are by some nuclear bomb.

    Most nations across the world have been bombed repeatedly by state and non-state murderers. Most of those killed have been women and children and most of the dead were residing in the Middle East. Most of the people slaughtered now are in the Middle East, not the United States. But, forgive me, those deaths ARE justified.

    This farcical facade of fear that is constantly pushed on us is creating a conflict that we can do without. Sure we could be nuked, but I would address those concerns with those countries in the Middle East that have nukes and nerve gas now: Israel and India.

    We have more chance of being struck by a cataclysmic meteor that we do being nuked by people whose main arsenal consists of a cell phone, a home made bomb, and a donkey. I would worry more about the nations that have satellite guided systems, bunker busters, uranium tipped munitions, computer assisted targeting, etc., etc. I think the people of the world have more to fear from those nations with such capabilities that from an angry disenchanted and demoralized group whose main form of weapon is their own bodies because they do not have the high tech stuff we do.

    I keep hoping that there is hope for racists and that one day they will grow up out of their racism and intolerance, at least around Christmas.

    Enough for now!

  11. Jose in Santa Maria
    December 31, 2006 at 5:26 am

    Outstanding post Marilyn,probably the post of the year.

  12. rob in los osos
    December 31, 2006 at 6:50 am

    I agree – great post Marilyn.

    Its nice to have the perspective of both a woman AND someone from the middle east – this blog is WAY too populated with two flavors of plain old vanilla. But, save yourself the trouble of trying to educate old JERRY. He just posts the same old mispelled obnoxious crap, and won’t engage in any serious debate. You’re far to intelligent and articulate for him.

  13. TimV
    December 31, 2006 at 2:55 pm

    Jerry, do you have a name list of those 2 million killed? And could you please add another 5 points to your IQ level and stop writing in caps?

    Maryline, which prominant think tanks are “born again”? Most seem dominated by traditional Catholics, secular Republican and Jewish neocons.

  14. Muhammed Hila Hammad Ubaydi
    December 31, 2006 at 4:57 pm

    Marilyn! You are brilliant! Great post! Hit the nail right on the head!
    Please! Please! Please move back to Iraq as soon as possible! We need you here! To help the rest of the world embrace us and accept us! Don’t desert your people and Allah at this time of great need!

    this 3rd and final jihad will succeed in islam dominating the world through hate and terrorism! Allah will be honored again and we will rule the world by killing the infidels!

    Oh Marilyn! as you drop today to your prayer carpet and face Mecca, submit yourself to the cause of Allah and Islam around the globe!
    Return to your roots…to your god…to your faith of birth and help us destroy America and the west…an insult to Allah paradise!

    We await your return to us…to Allah…to this final Jihad. Your work in west is done! You have converted many! Now is the time to return to your core beliefs and to your faith.

    Allah be praised as you plan your speedy reurn!

    Adhan! Adhan! Adhan! Salat ala an-nabi! Shahadah or Kalima! Taawadh! Waraita annasa yadkhuloona fee deen e illahi afwaja .

    your destiny awaits you!

    Sirata allazhina anamta alaihim, ghairil maghdubi alaihim, wa la adhdhaal leen. (Aameen)

  15. John Tolos
    December 31, 2006 at 5:55 pm

    Marilyn has some credible insight being from the middle east, Muhammed sounds like some fat loser from Arizona

  16. Dave Congalton
    December 31, 2006 at 10:41 pm

    I can understand why Jerry Dagna always provokes such controversy — as i’ve tried to point out previously, Jerry often does these tirades deliberately.

    But I’m always at a loss about why people respond so negatively to Marilyn Farhat, both on this blog and on the radio. I’ve been very appreciative of her point of view these last six months — I can’t say that I agree with her on everything, but I respect both her passion and point of view.

    So why is she often greeted with so much ridicule? I’m just curious — and sometimes sad.

  17. Puncho
    December 31, 2006 at 11:56 pm

    It’s to bad that JD can’t more of a gentleman like Atascadero Joe was. One could disagree with Joe but you had to respect him also. Jerry there is no respect when it comes to the dribble coming from you.

  18. Marilyn Farhat
    January 1, 2007 at 1:18 am

    Dave,

    To answer your question as to why some people are hostile:

    1- Hostile and rude people by nature tend to be more vocal and vicious. Respectful people are usually quieter and do not like confrontation, or they disagree in a civilized way.

    2- There is this perception about non-Christian women from the Middle East and that is that somehow we are a group of oppressed puppies out there looking for protection from the Knights in Shining Armor. We are fine as long as we play the frightened “damsel in distress” role. But as soon as we decide to step outside of the box of romanticized Western perception, God help us. We are ridiculed or completely ignored. People really have no clue how to react sometimes or they are plain dumbfounded.

    See, we are heroes when we talk about how evil the men of the Middle East have been to us. But if we even dare discuss the war, imperial oppression, politics, our right to get involved in the peace process and in war issues, and our right to make decisions in such areas the wolves come out.

    We are no more, no less oppressed than any woman around the world (with some exceptions), including women in the U.S. Women in general remain second class citizens because it is a patriarchal system out there, Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. All are a chip off the old Abrahamic block.

    But that is a topic for another discussion.

    As far as Mr. Muhammd Ahmad Hammoud Hammad, whatever his name is, I am truly impressed. You almost have your FATIHA down, you just missed the first part. But, I have hope.

    Dave,

    Remember the so-called Cedar Revolution of 2005, it is not there any more. Remember the one million people that took part in the non-violent civil disobedience in downtown Beirut last month (one forth of the population) asking for the government to step down? It is my understanding that on New Year’s Eve, a similar gathering is taking place downtown Beirut, Christmas trees, tents, nativity scenes and all, as solidarity by the people and they come from all religions, not just Hezbollah.

    A few trivia:

    1- Monies donated by the US and Arab and European countries for the rebuilding of the country have disappeared from the state treasury. This is the “democratic” government that Israel and the US want to govern Lebanon. Saudi Arabia did send pre-fab houses.

    2- Hezbollah are distributing money and free labor to the people to rebuild their homes.

    3- There are hundreds of thousands of unexploded mines and cluster bomblets still littering the Lebanese landscape. Civilians, mainly children, have been killed or maimed by them.

    4- The oil spill is still a major problem.

    5- The 2 Israeli soldiers have not been returned.

    6- There were “rumors” that while the Marines were evacuating Americans off the coast of Lebanon, others in their command were smuggling weapons into the country.

    7- I was on the phone to Lebanon today and people are determined not to let what is happening in Iraq happen to them. They are aware of the plot to destabilize the Middle East. That is why most Lebanese of all denominations are adamant about sticking together. However, the danger of conflict remains. All it takes is one act of violence to ignite the whole thing.

    8- Lastly, every time I talk to a Lebanese, I get the same question: “WHAT IS WRONG WITH BUSH? Does he not have any compassion for his men? Why does he not pull out of Iraq? All these young kids are dying for nothing.” In their mind, they cannot fathom why the citizens of the largest democracy in the world are not able to stop what they perceive as madness. Their comment to me is: “but you have more freedom than the rest of the world. Why don’t you do anything about it?”

    Can you imagine what we can accomplish in the United States if one quarter of OUR population turned out for a mass protest?

    I think many fail to realize that despite the oppression that many face in the Middle East, they take their political responsibilities very seriously. People are more willing to engage their governments in issues they disagree on DESPITE the potential harm to themselves. They also have more voter turnout in most elections (usually around the 80% figure).

    The Middle East certainly is not perfect, but neither are we and it would be the human thing to do to try and stop this madness. It can only get worse.

    We have hit the 3,000 mark on the number of dead US soldiers. When will enough be enough for us. We are still busy consuming (consumption is what really identifies us as Americans. It is the only value we have in common as citizens) and shopping as if there is no killing going on.

    We showcase the hanging of one tyrant and some gloat over it, but when it comes to showing the wounds of our wounded and dead soldiers, or even carrying symbolic flags in their memory, all of a sudden people become offended or do not want it done.

    I say we SHOULD see more of the physical and spiritual carnage inflicted on all those caught in war. Maybe then we will have more respect for the process of dying and maybe we will think twice before cheering the young and the inexperienced on to their deaths.

    This is the time when we need to be more vocal for the sake of all victims of war. People are people no matter where they are born or live.

    It is very gratifying to see that there are a number of decent people posting here and I am thankful for that. I would hope that in the coming weeks and months we will all be together out there and lobbying to stop this war and encourage diplomacy.

    Watch out for Saturday, Jan. 6th at Mission Plaza. There may be a reading of the names of soldiers killed in December (the worst casualty month since the war started).

    Best wishes to all of you in this New Year.

  19. Bob from San Luis
    January 1, 2007 at 2:38 am

    Commenting on the original post, I think the columnist pretty well got it right. No argument that Saddam was evil incarnate and most of the Shia and Kurds will sleep easier knowing that Saddam will not escape and return to power through some twist of fate. The article from the Times made an excellent point about the sham of a trial and how if he had been tried in a deliberate, impartial manner perhaps Iraqis could have a chance of a society where the rule of law actually means something. The end of the article mentions the secret dungeon holding prisoners and how it sounded just like what happened under Saddam’s rule; a prime example of how not much is changing in the mindset of those grasping for power- if you have the weapons and manpower to use them, you can enforce your will on others. I’m not so sure that Saddam’s death is going to cause further problems such as a escalation of violence, it seems like the violence is pretty escalated already. I do look forward to Rich from Paso’s opinion on Dave’s question.
    As for Marilyn Farhat: I appreciate reading your thoughtful comments and your insights about the region since you have such close ties to the Middle East. I am embarrassed that there are those who are so juvenile that they choose to post under a false name in such a blatantly racist manner. If anyone reading here has something constructive to say, please do so in a thoughtful manner and your words will mean something. To simply rant on about topic with no regards for the facts, to spout talking points that have no basis in reality and to hurl insults because you don’t agree with what someone else types here is pathetic. It also doesn’t matter if you type in all caps or all lower case either, if you are commenting from your heart. What you type here does show who you are.

  20. Anonymous
    January 1, 2007 at 3:00 am

    “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.”

    But we got fooled AGAIN!

  21. Rich from Paso
    January 1, 2007 at 3:31 am

    First of all, let me say: Happy New Year.

    It will begin a happier new year for the Iraqi people as the chief terrorist of the Iraqi people for 35 years died by the hangman’s noose at the end of the year. Yes, Saddam was a TERRORIST that controlled a country. He terrorized the Shia and Kurdish (not curd, Jerry) peoples of Iraq. He terrorized Iran with his war of aggression, the Kuwaitis with his invasion, the Saudis with his attacks during the Gulf War and the Israelis with his Scud missiles. He attempted to terrorize the United States with his attempted assassination of President George H.W. Bush. I say that he was the first terrorist to use chemical weapons on civilians, and for that crime, Saddam was convicted and executed. I have no doubt that the Sunnis of Iraq will see it that Saddam was murdered and martyred and therefore, there needs to be more violence in retrobution; that is to be expected. However, I feel that the hanging of Saddam has proven that eventually tyrannts will see justice and pay for their crimes. Unfortunately, guys like Bob and Dave were perfectly content to let Saddam remain in power under the guise of “containment”. Were it not for Bush, Saddam would still be in power, working on his own atomic bomb and terrorizing his people. Deny it all you want, guys, but that is an unassailable fact.

    What’s next for Iraq? The battle for Iraq has become a direct war against Al Qaida in Iraq and a covert/ proxy war against the mullahs of Iran. Each are seeking to bend Iraq to their will and use Iraq as a staging ground for further attacks on other Muslim nations and on the United States. The Iraqis must come out of their hidey-holes and stand up to the militias and to the government nad to the United States and tell the world that they want their country back.

    What should the United States do for the “new direction forward” that everyone wants? First, the United States and the Iraqi government needs to negotiate a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). Every country that the US has troops in has a SOFA with that host country. The SOFA with the Iraqis would state the level of involvement US troops would have in combat operations, the amount of influence the US has in Iraqi politics, how US soldiers accused of crimes will be handled and the mechanism the Iraqi government uses to control the amount of US troops in the country. All other issues will be resolved once the SOFA is negotiated.

    As for Marilyn: I hold no animous towards Ms. Farhat. I do feel that she is a member of the “Ensha Allah” (God wills it) group of Muslims. [I’m sure that I misspelled the Arabic; please forgive me] What the “God wills it” group has in common is that it is always someone else’s fault that the Middle East is all jacked up. They blame imperialist Europeans, meddlesome Americans or Zionist Jews for all of their problems. They believe that were it not for all of the outside interference in the Middle East, that region would be a paradise on earth. Poppycock! What Marilyn and her type are saying is that the Muslims bear no responsibility for the actions of their people. How nice and convienent it must be to be able to blame everyone else in the world for your problems. Come on, Marilyn, the Untied States didn’t create Al Qaida, or Hezbollah, or the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas, or the Mullahs of Iran or any other terrorist group in the Middle East. The United States was the one that brought that region out of the Dark Ages when we capped the oil wells and started pumping the trillions and trillions of US dollars into those countries for the oil. Were it not for the United States, the whole region would still be herding camels and farming pomergranates. Yes, the British and the French arbitrarily partitioned the Middle East into bogus countries after World War One. Yes, the United States and the Soviet Union used those bogus Arab states as pawns during the Cold War. I say Big Damn Deal. The Muslim world needs to grow up and modernize not only their societies but they need to moderize their religion. The 1400’s ended 700 years ago. Do I think that Muslim women are victims? Absolutely not. Muslim women have chosen to live the way they do. Women in Saudi Arabia have chosen to walk behind their men and to wear the head-to-toe wraps. Muslim women have chosen to live in a patriarchal society that enables a man to divorce his wife by saying “divorce, divorce, divorce”, even if it is in his sleep. I do not pity Muslim women at all. However, I do wish more for them than they wish for themselves.

    My prediction for peace in the Middle East for 2007? Nonexistant. Iran will continue to build toward a nuclear bomb and will continue to foment death and destruction in Iraq and acros the Middle East. Syria will continue to meddle in the affairs of Lebannon. Hamas and Hezbollah will continue to wage war against Israel. The Janjaweed will continue their genocide against the non-Muslims of Sudan. The al Qaida affiliates in Somalia will continue to murder the Somali people and the United States will continue to be in Iraq slugging it out, unappreciated by the media and the wacky leftists, for the Iraqi people.

    At midnight, drink up because it is going to be a long year for everyone.

  22. TimV
    January 1, 2007 at 3:20 pm

    Rich, you said

    “I say that he was the first terrorist to use chemical weapons on civilians, and for that crime, Saddam was convicted and executed.”

    Not to be overly picky, but the first person to use poison gas on civilians is generally considered to be Churchill, who used it against the Kurds.

  23. David Abdul
    January 1, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    Churchil did gas the Kurds, some people just don’t care to admit it. I see plenty of racism on this board and it is very sad.

  24. JerryDinAZ
    January 1, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    DAVE,
    YOU SAID:” I can understand why Jerry Dagna always provokes such controversy — as I’ve tried to point out previously, Jerry often does these tirades deliberately.”

    WELL THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS. ALL THE POLITICALLY CORRECT AUTOMATONS IN SLO COUNTY ARE PARANOID ABOUT SPEAKING THEIR OWN TRUTH…SO THEY SPEAK WHAT IS CONSIDERED APPROPRIATE FOR THE AREA…LIKE IT’S SOMETHING SPECIAL OR SOMETHING! UNLESS THEY POST “ANONYMOUS”…(aka: Chickenshits)

    THESE AUTOMATONS ARE ALSO INCAPABLE OF DEALING WITH THE FACT THAT A VERY LARGE MAJORITY OF AMERICA HATES MUSLIMS…BOTH SIDES! THE ISLAMIOFACISTS AND THE QUIET HORDES THAT REFUSE TO DENOUNCE THE TERRORISTS FOR FEAR OF BEING ASSASSINATED THEMSELVES.

    THEY CAN’T DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THE ALMOST 30,000,000 ILLEGAL ALIENS HERE FROM MEXICO AND THE ENORMOUS COST OF DEALING WITH THEM.

    THEY ARE FRIED THAT THE ILLEGAL MEXICANS HAVE OVERRUN OUR SCHOOLS AND OVER BURDENED THE SOCIAL SERVICES, NOT TO MENTION THE NUMBERS OF HOSPITAL CLOSURES DUE TO BANKRUPTCY.

    THEY NO LONGER WILL TOLERATE BLACKS KILLING BLACKS AND THE INCREASE OF DRUGS, VIOLENCE AND CRIME IN THAT RACE, NOT TO MENTION THE NUMBERS THAT CONTINUE TO MILK THE SYSTEM FOR DISABILITY AND WELFARE.

    MOST AMERICANS WANT RACIAL PROFILING AT AIRPORTS, BUT THE SECULAR PROGRESSIVES WILL FIGHT THAT TO THEIR OWN DEMISE.

    SO THERE YOU HAVE IT…NOW DEAL WITH IT! YOU LIVE IN A PROTECTED SOCIALLY LIBERAL SECULAR PROGRESSIVE ENVIRONMENT ALMOST TOTALLY SUPPORTED THE TAXPAYERS AND NOT A ONE OF YOU WILL TAKE THE STEPS TO CORRECT THAT PATH. THUS A HOUSE THERE NOW COSTS 16 TIMES THE AVERAGE FAMILY INCOME AND NOW IS OUT OF REACH OF MOST.

    SO I SPEAK THE TRUTH YOU ARE ALL AFRAID REALLY MIGHT EXIST…AND ARE AFRAID WILL BURST YOUR LIL “WE LIVE IN PARADISE” BUBBLE. WHAT I HAVE LEARNED SINCE LEAVING SLO IS THAT EVERYONE THINKS THEY LIVE IN PARADISE FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER! YOU HAVE NO CORNER ON THAT MARKET!

    SO YOU ALL CAN CONTINUE TO TRY AND PUT THE TRUTH SAYERS IN YOUR LIL BOXES (RACISTS OR WHATEVER) SO YOU CAN GO ON LIVING THE LIE!

    HOW MUCH EVIDENCE DO YOU WANT? I WOULD THINK THE NEW TIMES RE-BIRTH WOULD BE ENOUGH TO SHOW YOU ALL THAT YOU ARE LOSING THE BATTLE, IF NOT ALREADY LOST IT!

    SHALL I GO ON? OR DO YOU HAVE MORE INFORMATION THAN YOU CAN DEAL WITH ALREADY?

    AS FOR MARILYN AND YOUR SADNESS…LET THIS MAKE YOU AWARE DAVE, THAT THE MAJORITY OF BLOGGERS AND CALLERS REALLY DON’T WANT TO HERE THE POLITICALLY CORRECT DRIBBLE FROM A MUSLIM LIVING IN AMERICA DEFENDING HER OLD HOME COUNTRY OVER HER NEW ONE.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR! IT WILL BE FOR ME!

  25. Bob from San Luis
    January 1, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    Rich: …Yes, Saddam was a TERRORIST that controlled a country.… um, Rich, you do remember that we (the U.S. Government) did business with him and allowed US companies to do business with him AFTER he gassed the Kurds? The famous photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking Saddam’s hand was taken after he gassed the Kurds. Why didn’t we go for a “regime change” then, instead of waiting for some seventeen years? Is is even conceivable that the reason Saddam was executed so quickly was to prevent him from testifying about all of his connections to our government, or at least to members of the current administration? With Saddam dead the world will never know all of the political maneuvering and deal making that went on with Saddam’s government and ours. I’ve said this before, Saddam was a tyrant, evil incarnate, a butcher who killed indiscriminately and often, and he needed to be removed; the whole process could have been accomplished without invading Iraq, without us losing 3000 military personnel, 150,000 to 650,00 Iraqis dying; but that would have meant that none of the military contractors would have gotten rich. I know you like to tout all of the good things that our military has done in Iraq and I agree that they have done some wonderful projects; how many of those projects would not have been needed if we hadn’t destroyed so much infrastructure during the invasion? President Bush will not only be remembered for starting a war with no justification but for the poor planning and delayed implementation that has led to the instability that is Iraq today and will be for years to come. Even when doing the wrong thing there is a right way to do it, and President Bush has consistently done the wrong thing in the wrong way time after time when it comes to our occupation of Iraq. You want to see some change in our things are happening in Iraq? Change a few laws, like make war profiteering illegal and the contractors will pull out tomorrow. With no contractors doing any reconstruction in Iraq, we have no justification for being there militarily, so we begin to draw down our troop strength. Is it possible that if more jobs become available to the Iraqis for rebuilding their country that they might stop a lot of the fighting among themselves?

  26. Rich from Paso
    January 2, 2007 at 3:04 am

    Again, Bob, you don’t know what you are talking about. Our soldiers didn’t target for destruction any of the girl’s schools in Iraq, BECAUSE THERE WEREN’T ANY. Our servicemen didn’t aim at a single hospital or school because they are protected sites according to Laws of Warfare unless the Iraqi soldiers occupied those sites. If enemy soldiers occupy a protected site, such as a mosque or a hospital, our soldiers are trained to use the minimum, proportional force necessary to eliminate th threat. So, to answer your question: very little of the good we have done in Iraq is to make up for the collateral damage of our invasion.

    Why didn’t we remove Saddam after he gased the Kurds? Because all adnministrations until THIS one lacked the political will to get it done. I would think you would commend Bush for having that political will, but then I almost for who it was that I was talking to.

    Your continued delusional paranoia about the “vast right-wing conspiracy” is just more and more laughable every time you post your latest kooky theory. I suppose it never crossed your mind that it was the Iraqis that wanted that bastard dead now as opposed to later. You talk about stopping the meddling in Iraq’s affairs and making them stand up for themselves and then when they do, you criticize them as being stooges for the United States. Either you are ignorant of what you have previously posted or you are just a hypocrite. You are like a dog that won’t let go of a bone once you get a hold of it. On and on again you go about profiteering and other such nonsense. I have answered that charge a dozen times and yet you persist in believing what you do. I guess your mom and pop business gives you insight into what consitutes “war profiteering” or not.

    And once again, you don’t know what your a talking about when it comes to Bush’s “wrong” decisions. Remember it was Johnson and Clinton, not Bush, that personally did the targeting during Vietnam and Yugoslavia. Bush is one of the more hands off Commanders-in-chief we have had in a half century. It is the military commaders in the field that have chosen the troop levels and the tactics used in Iraq. The strategy from the White House has been “just win, baby” (for all you 2-14 Raiders fans out there). Isn’t it curious that Dave has never had an Iraq War veteran (not that boob that served on an aircraft carrier during the Gulf War) that has spoken in opposition to the Iraq War. I had many Iraq War veteran callers that support MY position over Dave’s or anyone else’s position against the war.

    I grow tired of your ignorance bordering on paranoid stupidity on Iraq and I am almost done entertaining your ignorance on the subject.

  27. JerryDinAZ
    January 2, 2007 at 3:07 am

    THE LEFTY SECULAR PROGRESSIVES ARE SO BLINDED BY THEIR HATE FOR BUSH THEY CAN’T EVEN RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH WHEN IT SLAPS THEM IN THE FACE…
    THAT IS WHY WE MUST WIN THIS CULTURE WAR AND TAKE BACK OUR NATION!

  28. Alicia in Goldtree
    January 2, 2007 at 3:58 am

    CodePink shutdown the Golden Gate Bridge today with a NO WAR march.
    Over 1000 peaceful patriots stopped all traffic for 3 hours. Hopefully, 2007 will bring a end to all the killing in Iraq. Peace to all

  29. JerryDinAZ
    January 2, 2007 at 4:37 am

    FOR CLARIFICATION:

    pa·tri·ot (pey-tree-uht, -ot) –noun
    1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

    THE CODE PINKO DISSIDENTS ARE FAR FAR FROM BEING A PATRIOT. OUR NATION IS AT WAR AGAINST GLOBAL TERRORISM AND TO NOT SUPPORT OUR COUNTRY AND IT’S NATION DEFENSE ISSUES IS CALLED “TREASON”.

    trea·son n.
    Violation of allegiance toward one’s country, especially the betrayal of one’s country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.

    REALLY NOW! EVEN HILLARY CLINTON KNOWS THAT!

  30. Dave Congalton
    January 2, 2007 at 5:00 am

    Jerry,

    Here’s a new flash. I love my country. I just don’t love my President. That doesn’t mean I’m not a patriot.

    Because I love my country, I’m trying to save her from The Powers That Be, namely The Worst President in Modern History. How much more money will he waste? How many more soldiers and civilians will have to die?

    If only Bush had gone to Viet Nam in the first place, he might have been more reluctant to go to war.

    I can’t speak for the National Code Pink, but the local chapter here is a fantastic group of men and women, all dedicated to peace.

    What are you offering as an alternative, Jerry?

  31. Rich from Paso
    January 2, 2007 at 6:33 am

    So, Dave, are you saying that you went to Vietnam that is why you are against the fight in Iraq? If you weren’t in Vietnam then Bush going to Vietnam would be irrelevant. McCain was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for many years and he is FOR the Iraq War. How do you explain that? Your falacies of logic are almost comical. By the way, you never did answer the “where were you during Vietnam” question.

  32. TimV
    January 2, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    Rich, again you write like a foolish person

    “Our soldiers didn’t target for destruction any of the girl’s schools in Iraq, BECAUSE THERE WEREN’T ANY.”

    Under the Ba’ath, Iraqi women had the highest literacy of any Muslim nation on earth, and were even members of Parliament.

    You have a strong tendency to bear false witness against your neighbor.

  33. JerryDinAZ
    January 2, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    DAVE,
    WHO SAID WE NEED AN ALTERNATIVE? NOT THE MILITARY…NOT OUR COURAGEOUS PRESIDENT…SO WHO? 50%+ OF GUTLESS AMERICANS DUPED BY THE TERRORIST OWN PLAN OF PROPAGANDA DISTRIBUTED FAITHFULLY BY FAILING NEWSPAPERS AND NETWORK NEWS PUPPETS?

    WE HAVE WON IN IRAQ…ACCOMPLISHED OUR OBJECTIVES SUPERBLY!

    NOW…WE FIGHT ON IN THE WAR ON TERROR. WE WILL NOW DEFEAT SAUDI ARABIAN AND IRANIAN SUNNIS ON IRAQI SOIL.

    YOU SEE, IT DOESN’T MATTER WHERE WE FIGHT THIS GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR! AMERICA IS SAFE AND FREE FROM ANY OTHER ATTACKS. FACISTS ZELOT WORLD DICTATORS HAVE BEEN PUT ON NOTICE THEIR FATE AWAITS THEM AT THE END OF A ROPE.

    IF YOU ONLY WOULD WATCH THE REPORTS FROM IRAQ BY BILL O’REILLY OR SEAN HANNITY YOU WOULD SEE THE FAITHFULNESS AND COURAGE OF OUR SOLDIERS, AND THEIR SUCCESS THERE!

    IT’S NOT THE MILITARY OR THE PRESIDENT THAT NEEDS AN ALTERNATIVE…IT’S THE “INSTANT GRATIFICATION”, SITCOM WATCHING, NETWORK NEWS LEMMINGS THAT NEED AN ALTERNATIVE!

    WATCH OUT! THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF IS JUST UP AHEAD! WILL YOU JUMP OFF OR TURN AND SEE THE LIGHT AND LIVE?

  34. John Tolos
    January 2, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    Surgeon General’s Warning

    By reading that last post by Arizona, you have already gotten a years supply of word salad.

  35. Dave Congalton
    January 2, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    Rich,

    Nice try, my friend. It is easy for President Bush to rush us into war and keep us there all this time, even adding additional troops. Like other ‘chickenhawks” he talks tough, but has no clue of combat, unlike my producer Tom Madsen, who still can’t discuss Korea 50 years later.

    My point was simply that if the chicken hawks had experienced war themselves, they wouldn’t be so quick to put us in harm’s way.

    In terms of my own military experience. I had a college deferment and a relatively high lottery number. Had I been drafted prior to ’68, I would have gone, but after Tet, no way. I would have fought the draft all the way. No doubt about it. No regret.

    But you don’t hear me playing Chicken Hawk. I supported Bush the Senior on Persian Gulf. I’m not against war, but this current pretender in the White House was manipulated into being a “War President” by the neo-cons. Bad move. Bad President. He’s no Gerald Ford, that’s for sure.

  36. Anonymous
    January 2, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Former NBC News anchor Tom Brokaw, who delivered a eulogy at President Gerald Ford’s funeral today, appeared this morning on the Don Imus radio show. Brokaw agreed with Imus that it is “difficult to imagine” how the execution of Saddam Hussein “could have turned out worse.”

    “[W]e portray ourselves around the world as the champions of democracy and the rule of law,” Brokaw said, yet Hussein’s execution “resembled the worst kind of nightmare out of the old American West.” As a result, Hussein, who “had disappeared, in effect, as some kind of a symbol over there, suddenly becomes a martyr.”

  37. Rich from Paso
    January 2, 2007 at 8:13 pm

    Right here, Dave, exists the gulf between you and me on this subject. I say that if YOU had served in any capacity, you would have more faith in the performance of our troops in the field. You would actually know what you were talking about. You do know that not everyone that served during Vietnam went to Vietnam. You too could have had a military career similar to Gore and Bush.

    As for your deferment: I figured as much. You are typical of liberals: your anger at something always comes out late and is destructive in its own right. You say that you would have fought your draft selection after the Tet Offensive. That would have been the wrong time to oppose the war. Newsflash: WE WON THE TET OFFENSIVE!!! The Viet Cong were destroyed as an insurgent force and taht forced the North Vietnames Army to take the field directly against us. Every NVA officer and every historian agrees with me on that. But what happens? Walter Cronkite says the war is unwinable and all you liberals start running around like Chicken Little protesting the war. Then later when Nixon orders the Linebacker II bombing campaign, every North Vietnames general says that the North was 30 days from sueing for peace and possibly saving South Vietnam from communism. But no! The Liberals in Congress choose that moment to cut off funding for the war, ensuring that we lose Vietnam. The right time to oppose Vietnam would have been when Truman gave Southeast Asia back to the French or after the French or after the French lost at Dien Bein Phu, keeping us totally our of Vietnam. Right now, you should be for this operation in Iraq because we are winning every battle, we are building a better Iraq and the costs of losing Iraq will be ten times more devestating than losing Vietnam ever could have been.

    It’s sad that you lack the personal frame of reference and personal experience on this subject. You would spend less time quoting New York Times articles and editorials and more time actually helping your audience understand what really is happening in Iraq. There is still time to fix that. Just volunteer to have yourself enbeded as a journalist and spend a week or two in Iraq and SEE FOR YOURSELF. George Ramos can creditental you with the LA TIMES I’m sure. I will be unable to argue with you AT ALL if you go there and you come back with the same opinion that Iraq is irreverably jacked up because you will have witnessed what you talking about. For once, stop choosing to defer from action and get in the game and see for yourself.

    Oh, and Happy New Year.

  38. Alicia in Goldtree
    January 3, 2007 at 3:45 am

    Dave,
    The show tonight(1/2/07) is one of the best I can recall. Happy New Year to you, all the pets, Tom and even that confused fellow who types in caps, Jerry.
    Peace

  39. Marilyn Farhat
    January 3, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Tim,

    In answer to your question about the “born-again think tanks,” I agree with you. It is all those you mentioned. I used that term to mean that this is a fairly new philosophy born out of the “reformation” of those of previous “liberal” leanings due to their disenchantment with what they perceived as failed domestic social policies. They “morphed” into “compassionate” conservatives, and Neo-Conservatives. What is ironic is that many of of those Neo-Cons were raised in Atheist Jewish Communist families (the Trotskyist tradition) who believed in the doctrine of “permanent revolution.”

    Like any “reformed” anything, the target object is replaced by another (in this case liberalism is replaced by conservatism), but the approach remains the same. Thus the belief among the Neo-Cons that it is America’s “moral imperative” to “set out across the world” and spread democracy.

    This is no different from the revolutionary approaches of the old communists if you ask me.

  40. TimV
    January 3, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    Yes, Marylin. If half-wits like Jerry and well meaning but uninformed people like Rich knew that those neocons who have formed our current foreign policy are pro abortion, pro mass third world immigration, pro big governments, pro gay rights they would be ashamed by acting like useful idiots. But by definition they are easily manipulated so I guess the ashamed part is above their level of comprehension.

    You can point out that Iraq under Saddam had more rights for Christians and woman than almost all the Muslim nations around, and that they (and Syria) killed more Islamic fundamentalists than just about any government in history, but what’s the use? The neos just have to push buttons and they go on the attack.

    Interesting how people on the far right like myself and people who are left leaning like yourself have seen pretty much eye to eye on the Iraq issue.

    It almost seems like it’s become less of a political division than one between those who can think for themselves and those who’ve never been taught to think.

    Regards
    Tim

  41. Rich from Paso
    January 3, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    I have one question for Marilyn Farhat:

    Was the invasion of Somalia by Ethiopia to drive out the Union of Islamic Courts islamists a good thing or a bad thing?

    I await your reply.

  42. JerryDinAZ
    January 3, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    LET’S ALL LOOK AT WHAT MUSLIMS ARE COMMANDED TO DO BY ALLAH! THESE ARE DIRECT VERSES FROM THE KORAN.

    THE KORAN COMMANDS ALL MUSLIMS TO KILL INFIDELS:

    Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161

    Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out – 2:191

    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39

    Fighting is obligatory for you – 2:216

    All martyrs…. Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43

    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54

    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39

    O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65

    Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3

    Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5

    Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. – 9:28

    Fight those who do not believe in Allah. The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. – 9:29

    Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. – 9:41

    O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell.- 9:73

    Allah has purchased their faithful lives and they will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. – 9:111

    Fight unbelievers who are near to you. Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers…. 9:123

    Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. – 33:60

    Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. – 41:14

    The unbelievers are the vilest of all creatures. – 98:51

    Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to death.

    OK MARILYN…EXPLAIN THOSE VERSES! WE AWAIT YOUR ANSWER.

  43. TimV
    January 3, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    As I right wing Calvinistic Christian, I will comment on the first three

    “Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98

    On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161″

    This is the same of Christian theology.

    “Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out – 2:191”

    That is taken out of context. Christians as well as several other religions are specifically protected by the Koran.

    I mean really, even Iran has three seats in Parliament reserved by order of Iran’s Constitution.

    No that you have the discernment to know whether something’s taken out of context or not….

  44. Marilyn Farhat
    January 4, 2007 at 3:07 am

    Rich,

    The invasion of Somalia is definitely NOT a good thing for a number of reasons.

    The US has tacitly supported the warlords (who terrorized the people and whom we were trying to eradicate in the past)in this invasion. We are playing the same game we played with the tyrants of the Middle East. One day “with us” and one day “against us.”

    No sovereign nation should be subjected to an invasion and occupation by another nation. I am against citizens collaborating with foreign governments to oust certain segments of their own people, especially when not carried out under international law.

    The country may plunge into lawlessness once more. There is already talk of atrocities being committed.

    It would be interesting to keep an eye on what happens in Mogadishu right now, especially to the average Somalis. With the absence of the Union of Islamic Courts, who since the early 1990s have been providing some degree of order and social services to the people, such services will have to be continued/re-initiated by other groups.

    This whole stunt has to do with the fact that it was an Islamic government and the “fear” of Al Qa’eda type “terrorists.”

    It would be interesting to see what happens now that the war lords may be back.

    Guerrilla type resistance is projected for that region since the Islamic Court members chose to leave and not to fight at this time.

    I do not expect anything positive out of this intervention that has all the hallmarks of disregard for cultural, political, tribal, or humanitarian considerations. But, only time will tell.

  45. JerryDinAZ
    January 4, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    MARILYN??
    WE ALL EAGERLY AWAIT YOUR RESPONSE TO THOSE VERSES FROM YOUR PRECIOUS KORAN…
    HELP US UNDERSTAND YOUR PEACE LOVING RELIGION.
    OR WILL YOU HIDE UNDER YOUR DESK?

    IF…IF WE GET NO RESPONSE THAT IS REALISTIC FROM MARILYN YOU WILL ALL SEE FOR YOURSELVES FIRST HAND HOW THIS CULTURE WAR BEING IS WAGED!

    AHHH! THE POWER OF THE BLOG! WHAT A COUNTRY EH?

  46. Anonymous
    January 4, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    Ya know, as much as I hate to admit it, I would like to hear marilyn explain those verses too?
    Do you think she will?

  47. groverbeachbabe
    January 5, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    ok…I am brand new to this blog, but here goes!
    why is marilyn avoiding Jerry’s question? She writes prolifically except when she is asked politely to respond to some verses from the Koran.
    I am with annonymous. I want a muslim to explain those verses. On the surface it seems we are doing the right thing in Iraq if that religion really believes those things.
    so Marilyn? Can you please respond?

  48. marilyn farhat
    January 6, 2007 at 3:36 am

    To Anonymous,

    Why? Can you explain every single verse in the Old and New Testaments, especially the ones where they stone women, own slaves, and butcher and rape their enemies? What about the verses where the children of Abraham are busy killing everything that walks on Earth? And, why do I need to EXPLAIN anything to any of YOU? What is this need to know what I think? Can’t you guys think for yourselves? I refuse to discuss religious matters with people who want to argue for the sake of argument as opposed to understanding.

    As far as Rich’s question, I did answer it. I said it was not a good thing to invade Somalia and get rid of the Islamic Court. What is wrong with you guys? Need glasses too? I used the phrase “definitely NOT a good thing.”

    But, oooh, you got me! Right?

    p.s. I will give you a hint for those truly interested in Koranic verses, you should know that most of the Suras refer to actual events and battles that happened in the PAST, not to future behavior; but you need to know the history of ancient Arabia and the battles between the infidel Arabs (AKA pagans), the Jewish Arabs of Medina, the fledgling Muslim sect, the money grubbing merchants of Koraish (yes, they had tribal corporate hegemony in those days too), and the betrayal of the terms of treaties, before you can even discuss a single verse in the Koran.

    Enough about this subject. No need to go back and forth.

    Hope to see you all tomorrow at Mission Plaza for the reading of the names of the soldiers who died in December. Noon.

  49. marilyn farhat
    January 6, 2007 at 4:24 am

    Rich,

    Sorry. Ignore the comment in the previous post about my response to you. For some reason, amidst all the indignation from certain anonymous and not so anonymous posters, I thought I saw questions about your post too. I was wrong. Sorry about that.

    Next time I should stay home from work just so I can answer Jerry’s questions in a more timely manner.

    I guess the situation is escalating in Somalia. Things do not look good for many countries either.

  50. Rich from Paso
    January 6, 2007 at 6:39 am

    Marilyn, I appreciate your point of view on this subject. However, I am skeptical and not easily swayed by the “they restored public need X, therefore they are good” arguement that you have used in past discussions on groups like Hezbollah and Hamas, both of which are first and foremost terrorist organizations. I admit that I do not know much about the ICU, however I am troubled by reports of links to al Qaida and that the ICU is harboring those responsible for the 1998 embassy bombings. The Transitional Federal Government has issued an edict stating that the warlord era in Mogadishu is over and that the civilian population will be disarmed and all technicals will be turned in. You are right that the US has been supporting the warlords. I think you are right that the Cold War concept of “support anyone who is not Communist” is now “support anyone who is not al Qaida or Islamist”. I also believe you are right that only time will tell with Somalia.

  51. JerryDinAZ
    January 6, 2007 at 6:46 am

    MARILYN,
    YOU DONT NEED TO GO ANY FURTHER BACK THAN 9-11! WERE THOSE ISLAMIC TERRORISTS READING ANOTHER KORAN?
    IF NOT…THEY ACCOMPLISHED A FEW OF THOSE VERSUS VERY WELL. WE LOST 3000 AMERICANS.

    NOW MARILYN, FORGET ALL THOSE VERSES…JUST EXPLAIN WHAT WAS IN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THOSE MEMBERS OF YOUR RELIGION.

    LET’S START THERE. OR WILL YOU COP OUT AGAIN?

  52. JerryDinAZ
    January 7, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    BLOG TOPIC: “Iraq After Saddam — Now What?”

    NOW THERE’S A PLAN! THE USA WILL HANDLE THE ISLAMOFACISTS IN IRAQ AND ISRAEL WILL HANDLE THOSE ISLAMONAIZIS IN IRAN…

    THAT’S A FORIGN POLICY THAT WILL WORK. NOW WATCH HOW THE DEFEATOCRATS CRY FOUL! LOL

    “Israel has drawn up secret plans to destroy Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities with tactical nuclear weapons

    Two Israeli air force squadrons had been training to blow up an enrichment plant in Natanz using low-yield nuclear “bunker busters.”

    Two other sites, a heavy water plant at Arak and a uranium conversion plant at Isfahan, would be targeted with conventional bombs”

    IRAN MAY BECOME THE “GLASS ASHTRAY” IT NEEDS TO BECOME!

    THANKS ISRAEL! WE APPRECIATE THE HELP!

    NO SADMAN…NO AQUAVELVESHJAD!

    YA CAN’T DEFINE A BETTER WIN-WIN SITUATION THAN THAT!

    BTW…MARILYN? WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE!

  53. GROVERBEACHBABE
    January 7, 2007 at 10:34 pm

    I know you cannot compel a person to respond to a blog question. Yet I am very interested as to why Marilyn continues to post responses on other blog topics and so obviously avoids the questions asked her about the hate and killing practices of her religion.
    Maybe should could just state why she won’t answer, or better yet just take a stab at an answer.
    I would really like to see that response since I don not spend a lot of time studying the subject. I would like to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak.
    so can Marilyn or anyone else answer why Islam does so much killing in the name of Allah? And why all of Islam is silent on the terrorist issue?

  54. Bob from San Luis
    January 14, 2007 at 5:53 am

    ….so can Marilyn or anyone else answer why Islam does so much killing in the name of Allah?
    Islam is about 700 years behind Christianity; what was Christianity preoccupied with 700 years ago? Remember the Crusades? An attempt to force religious conversion of those who were not Christians to become Christians. Jews, Muslims and anyone practicing any-other religion were attacked with a ferocity and unyielding that truly was a religious fanaticism. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades into the middle east; if they had had the technology back then, the “Christian Warriors” of the time most likely would have used suicide bombings as the “Islamofacists” are using today. Does that make what those who practice terrorist tactics today any less responsible? Absolutely not. Does it give them any justification either? Again, no. The one thing that this comparison does though is to point out how this current situation compares to times past; the possibility that the radicals that actually do want to try to convert everyone in the world to Islam have zero chance of achieving that goal. Can they do harm to us though? Of course, that is why we need to do better policework; more intelligence work to identify networks, disrupt supply sources, intervene before an attack can happen. We have many technologies available to us, many resources, but instead we are caught up with trying to impose a form of government on another population that may have at one time welcomed our intervention, but now after four years and we have not given them a situation that is much better before we went there, and they want us to leave. Rich has pointed out before rightly that we have not left Germany completely, nor Japan or Korea; I don’t believe that we have to vacate Iraq completely, a few small bases in a few remote regions should be acceptable to both the US and Iraq. Then our military can be pulled back, regrouped and rested and be ready for what ever else is coming.

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