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The 9-11 Conspiracy

Interesting segment we had on Friday, thanks to Adam Hill from Cal Poly — check out the podcast if you can at 920kvec.com.

Adam and I discussed the BYU physics professor who has been placed on a paid leave of absence because he has argued in professional papers (not in the classroom) that he believes the federal government is behind the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9-11.

As the phone calls started flooding in, it became increasingly aware as to how amny of you buy into some sort of federal government involvement in 9-11 — many of you comparing it to FDR and Pearl Harbor.

Personally, I think government is not to be trusted, partly because of bureaucratic incompetence and partly because they rarely are truthful to the public, unless exposed. But there is no way I’m willing to even consider that this scenario is possible. As much as I criticize President Bush, there is no way you can ever convince me that the federal government participated in the destruction of the WTC. It is, in my opinion, ludicrious, to even suggest it.

But here’s the most exhaustive study to date: the editors of Popular Mechanics debunk these allegations one by one and remove any doubt what happened that fateful day. Check out http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

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  1. JerryDinAZ
    September 11, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    9-11…WE WILL NEVER FORGET! WE WILL NEVER FORGET THAT PRES. CLINTON HAD BINLADEN BY THE SCRUFF OF HIS NECT AND LET HIM GO…BECAUSE HE WAS DISTRACTED BY “BJ’s” IN THE OVAL OFFICE! AND SOME OF YOU WANT THE DEMOCANTS TO HAVE MORE CONTROL? LOL…NOT GONNA HAPPEN. AS FOR COLLEGE PROFESSORS…THEY ARE ALL LIBERAL TAX TROUGH FEEDING LIBERAL PIGS! THEY SHOULD HAVE TO WORK IN PRIVATE INDUSTRIES 50% OF THEIR TIME…NONE WOULD LAST.

  2. Adam Hill
    September 11, 2006 at 4:25 pm

    A debate that you can listen to on Democracy Now:

    http://www.democracynow.org/
    article.pl?sid=06/09/11/1345203

  3. Bob from San Luis
    September 11, 2006 at 5:30 pm

    Dave: I agree that those in charge of leading the federal government could not have pulled something as outrageous as destroying the WTC; is it possible that some “shadow” agency ( not the NSA but a smaller, unknown group) somehow was able to install explosives? I find that scenario impossible myself, I do believe that the explosions from the jets crashing and jet fuel burning were hot enough to weaken the structure, and with the weight of the floors above collapsing downward, the “pancake” effect was more than enough to start the chain reaction that caused the buildings to fall. As for building no. 7, um, not sure how that happened.
    JerryDinAZ: “No war for Monica”, “It’s wag the dog, Clinton is trying to distract from his domestic problem by lobbing a few missiles…” – Does any of that sound familiar? The Right would have hammered Clinton no matter what he did ( as if they didn’t enough). College Professors being liberal: What is your point? A college education is supposed to be encompassing, to help young people learn to think critically; do you really believe that they could do that if the Professors simply regurgitated right wing propaganda?

  4. Rich from Paso
    September 11, 2006 at 6:30 pm

    The conspiracy nutjobs won’t let go of the 9-11 conspiracy anymore than the “Grassy knoll” JFK nutjobs will.

    Here is a website that talks extensively about WTC 7 and why it came down. I remember stories from 9-11 about an uncontrolled fire and WTC #7 and the FDNY was unable to put it out due to the sudden loss of manpower and all of the WTC wreckage. Also, one of my cousins on my wife’s side worked in WTC #7 on the day of 9-11. She escaped and said that there is no way that building was brougth down by anything other than that uncontrolled fire. I think that American Express had their offices there.

    I’m happy that we can all agree that 9-11 was a heinous act committed by forces outside of the United States.

  5. moquiti
    September 11, 2006 at 10:48 pm

    According to a recent Scripps Howard poll, something like 36% of Americans believe that the Feds had some active direct involvement with the attacks of 9/11. That’s a pretty sizeable dissent, though I would guess within that 36% there is likely little agreement.

    I would venture to guess that that percentage will only grow with time, as it has to present. Plenty of room for doubt, in my book. Listening to the DN link Adam posted (adam hill, above), it sounded like the Popular Mechanics investigation was also selective in their research. You’d almost have to be. We have no prior experience with this sort of structural failure, outside of controlled demolitions. That’s probably why intentional demolition has been such a popular alternative response to the structural failure. For myself, I am willing to withold judgement, and entertain different explanations. I’m not in any hurry to “wrap it up” as most people are.

    The feds haven’t done much, as an whole, to earn my trust (although there are countless federal employees who might), so when our leaders are pushing a jingoistic and racist public line (appealing to the jerrydinaz of the world) using the tragedy of 9/11 as a crutch, I just refuse to get on board.

    Give me your best argument, but never, never say that the feds have their hands clean.

  6. Rich from Paso
    September 12, 2006 at 2:51 am

    Kook conspiracies aside, I think that the answer to the whole “what to do with Ground Zero debate is to build identical but structurally better Twin Towers exactly the same height and dimensions of the first WTC (rebuild #7 for S and G) and show these terrorist sonzabitches that after 9-11 the Pentagon has been rebuilt and that the WTC stand again and all they achieved was their deaths.

    Remembering the NYPD, FDNY, Flight 93, adn Pentagon heroes on 9-11.

  7. Anonymous
    September 12, 2006 at 5:36 am

    Trav in SLO wrote:

    Has anyone checked out the website

    http://www.brain-terminal.com

    yet? It is very funny and shows some true liberals in their own settings like protests. The liberals do the talking, and they sound like Santa Maria Bill or Michelle.

    Oh yeah, I got to follow Santa Maria Bill on the air today, and I told Dave to send the nurse with his meds. I crack myself up!

    The Presidents speech was great today, and not much different than the one he gave almost five years ago. USA! USA! USA! USA!

  8. JerryDinAZ
    September 12, 2006 at 3:00 pm

    CORE BELIEFS OF A DEMOCANT

    1. YOU HAVE TO BE AGAINST CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, BUT SUPPORT ABORTION ON DEMAND.

    2. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT BUSINESSES CREATE OPPRESSION AND GOVERNMENTS CREATE PROSPERITY.

    3. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GUNS IN THE HANDS OF LAW-ABIDING AMERICANS ARE MORE OF A THREAT THAN U.S. NUCLEAR WEAPONS TECHNOLOGY IN THE HANDS OF CHINESE AND NORTH KOREAN COMMUNISTS.

    4. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS NO ART BEFORE FEDERAL FUNDING.

    5. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GLOBAL TEMPERATURES ARE LESS AFFECTED BY CYCLICAL DOCUMENTED CHANGES IN THE EARTH’S CLIMATE AND MORE AFFECTED BY SOCCER MOMS DRIVING SUV’S.

    6. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GENDER ROLES ARE ARTIFICIAL BUT BEING HOMOSEXUAL IS NATURAL.

    7. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE AIDS VIRUS IS SPREAD BY A LACK OF FEDERAL FUNDING.

    8. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE SAME TEACHER WHO CAN’T TEACH 4TH-GRADERS HOW TO READ IS SOMEHOW QUALIFIED TO TEACH THOSE SAME KIDS ABOUT SEX.

    9. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT OUTDOORS MEN DON’T CARE ABOUT NATURE, BUT LOONY ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE OF SAN FRANCISCO DO.

    10. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT SELF-ESTEEM IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING TO EARN IT.

    11. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT MEL GIBSON SPENT $25 MILLION OF HIS OWN MONEY TO MAKE THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST FOR FINANCIAL GAIN ONLY.

    12. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THE NRA IS BAD BECAUSE IT SUPPORTS CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CONSTITUTION, WHILE THE ACLU IS GOOD BECAUSE IT SUPPORTS CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

    13. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT TAXES ARE TOO LOW, BUT ATM FEES ARE TOO HIGH.

    14. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT MARGARET SANGER AND GLORIA STEINEM ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO AMERICAN HISTORY THAN THOMAS JEFFERSON, GEN. ROBERT E. LEE, AND THOMAS EDISON.

    15. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT STANDARDIZED TESTS ARE RACIST, BUT RACIAL QUOTAS AND SET-ASIDES ARE NOT.

    16. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT HILLARY CLINTON IS NORMAL AND IS A VERY NICE PERSON.

    17. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE ONLY REASON SOCIALISM HASN’T WORKED ANYWHERE IT’S BEEN TRIED IS BECAUSE THE RIGHT PEOPLE HAVEN’T BEEN IN CHARGE.

    18. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE CONSERVATIVES TELLING THE TRUTH BELONG IN JAIL, BUT A LIAR AND A SEX OFFENDER BELONGED IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

    19. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUAL PARADES DISPLAYING DRAG, TRANSVESTITES, AND BESTIALITY SHOULD BE CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED, AND MANGER SCENES AT CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

    20. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ILLEGAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY FUNDING BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS SOMEHOW IN THE BEST INTEREST TO THE UNITED STATES.

    21. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THIS MESSAGE IS A PART OF A VAST, RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY
    NOW GO VOTE

  9. Anonymous
    September 12, 2006 at 4:34 pm

    This site says it all:

    http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/
    c.cgi?u=911_morons

  10. Anonymous
    September 12, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    Mr. JERRDINAZ….

    I’m deeply offended by your comment about homosexuality:

    “19. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUAL PARADES DISPLAYING DRAG, TRANSVESTITES, AND BESTIALITY SHOULD BE CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED, AND MANGER SCENES AT CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.”

    As a homosexual living on the Central Coast, I can not believe that you compare homosexuality to bestiality. I have been to numerous Gay pride events, and never has there been anything close to such a display. Homosexuality is the love to two same-sex people. I can’t comprehend why straight conservatives always make this leap to bestiality. It makes as much sense as claiming your manger scenes depict bestiality.

    I ask of you to please help rid ignorance, and do not speak to things which you know nothing about. End the hatred and learn some tolerance and respect for others. Isn’t that what this country was founded upon… EQAUL rights for all people?

  11. Rich from Paso
    September 12, 2006 at 4:50 pm

    WOW! THAT WAS GREAT JERRY. WHERE DID YOU GET THAT OR DID YOU COME UP WITH THAT YOURSELF?

    I’M A JERRYDINAZ CONVERT. FROM HERE ON OUT, ALL OF MY BLOG POSTS WILL BE IN ALL CAPS.

  12. Anonymous
    September 12, 2006 at 5:41 pm

    go jerry go.
    were live, were local, were liberal, were lost

  13. Bob from San Luis
    September 12, 2006 at 10:34 pm

    CORE BELIEFS OF A REPUBLICAN:

    1. YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION FOR ANY REASON FOR ANY PERSON, (UNLESS IT IS FOR YOU WIFE OR DAUGHTER) AND THAT CAPITAL PUNISHMENT WILL REDUCE CRIME BECAUSE EVENTUALLY YOU HAVE KILLED ALL OF THE CRIMINALS, AND EVEN MENTALLY ILL CRIMINALS SHOULD BE EXECUTED, NO EXCEPTIONS.

    2. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM, AND WHEN YOU GET INTO OFFICE YOU MAKE SURE IT IS, AND YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT IF BUSINESSES/CORPORATIONS WEREN’T REGULATED IN ANY WAY, MARKET FORCES WOULD DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG SO THAT BUSINESSES WOULD POLICE THEMSELVES.

    3. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ANY GUN CONTROL IS AN AFFRONT TO THE SECOND AMENDMENT; ANYONE WHO WANTS ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO OWN AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, ROCKET LAUNCHERS, ETC. (Disregard what those in law enforcement say; they are not trying to protect you, they want you unarmed)- YOU HAVE TO ABANDON AND/OR DERAIL ANY ATTEMPTS AT CONTROLLING THE PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS; THOSE LOOSE NUKES THAT ARE NOT PROTECTED WELL IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION POSE NO THREAT.

    4. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT FEDERAL FUNDING IS EVIL, FOR ANYTHING.

    5. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT SCIENCE IS TOO “SCIENCE-IE”, THAT SCIENTIST HAVE AN ANTI-BUSINESS AGENDA, AND THAT EVERYONE CAN DRIVE AND POLUTE AS MUCH AS THEY WANT AND IT DOESN’T AFFECT OUR PLANET IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

    6. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT BEING HOMOSEXUAL IS A “CHOICE”, EVEN IF YOU ARE A CLOSETED REPUBLICAN IN ELECTED OFFICE, AND THAT WOMEN CAN DO ANY JOB, BE IN ANY POLITICAL POSITION AS LONG AS THEY CAN STILL COOK AND CLEAN.

    7. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT AIDS ONLY AFFECTS “OTHER” PEOPLE AND JUST LIKE NO. 4, ANY FEDERAL FUNDING IS EVIL.

    8. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT TEACHING THE FUNDAMENTALS OF SEX EDUCATION PROMOTES PROMISCUITY, THAT KNOWING HOW TO PROPERLY USE A CONDOM MEANS NEVER HAVING TO SAY “NO”, THAT ABSTINENCE IS THE ONLY THING OUR CHILDREN “NEED” TO KNOW, AND THAT TEACHERS HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS, TOTALLY IGNORING THE DISASTROUS EFFECTS OF “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND” BECAUSE THE TEACHING IS ALL ABOUT TEACHING TO THE TEST.

    9. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ALTHOUGH MOST OUTDOORS-MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE, THOSE WHO POACH, LITTER AND TRESPASS HAVE NO IMPACT ON HOW THE RESPONSIBLE ONES ARE VIEWED, AND THAT ANYBODY WHO DOESN’T CARRY A GUN WHEN THEY ARE IN THE WILD IS SOME SORT OF “LOONY” TREE-HUGGER.

    10. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ONLY THOSE WHO “EARN IT” DESERVE RESPECT, THAT “SELF ESTEEM” DOESN’T REALLY MATTER, FORGETTING THAT MANY WHO OCCUPY THE UPPER ECHELONS OF SOCIETY HAVE IT HANDED TO THEM ( can you say “legacy scholarships”?).

    11. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT MEL GIBSON DOESN’T HATE JEWS, AND THAT HE MADE “PASSION OF THE CHRIST” BECAUSE HE TRULY FEELS LOVE FOR ALL OF HIS FELLOW HUMANS.

    12. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE ACLU IS SOME SORT OF COMMIE/PINKO/JEWISH/LIBERAL CABAL THAT WANTS TO RAM THEIR “VALUES” DOWN YOUR THROAT ( Disregarding that they will defend anyone who has their Constitutional rights trampled, i.e. defending White Supremacist, Nazis and Militia types) AND THAT THE NRA “ONLY” HAS EVERYONE’S BEST INTEREST AT HEART ( the ability of anyone to own any gun, see no. 3).

    13. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT TAXES ARE TOO HIGH FOR EVERYONE ( how many tax cuts have been passed in the last 5 years?) DISREGARDING THE FACT THAT MANY OF THE FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES PAY NO TAXES ( if you want to pay less taxes, perhaps our military spending could be a little less than the current amount, more than the next 20 countries in military strength, combined?) AND THAT BUSINESSES WILL REGULATE THEMSELVES ACCORDING TO MARKET FORCES ( see no. 2 above.)

    14. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT WOMEN HAVE NO PLACE IN HISTORY, ONLY WHITE MEN HAVE MADE OUR COUNTRY WHAT IT IS TODAY.

    15. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT STANDARDIZED TEST ARE FAIR NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF ANY PARTICULAR SCHOOL DISTRICT ARE, SO THAT INNER CITY SCHOOLS THAT HAVE A VERY LOW TAX BASE TO DRAW FROM IS EQUAL TO EVERY SUBURBAN SCHOOL DISTRICT NO MATTER HOW WEALTHY THE TAX BASE IS, AND THAT RACIAL QUOTAS AND SET-ASIDES ARE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE SIMPLY ALLOWING FOR SKIN COLOR.

    16. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT HILLARY CLINTON IS EVIL INCARNATE, THAT SHE IS THE MOST LIBERAL SENATOR IN HISTORY, AND SHE NEVER SUPPORTS ANYTHING SPONSORED BY A REPUBLICAN. ( how did she vote for the Iraqi war?)

    17. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ANY PROGRAM IN ANY GOVERNMENT THAT STIVES TO HELP ITS’ CITIZENS IS “SOCIALIST”, WHETHER YOU CALL IT WELFARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, SOCIAL SECURITY; IT IS WRONG TO HELP THE LESS FORTUNATE, THE INJURED, THE ELDERLY AND THOSE WHO CANNOT DO THE SAME JOB ANYMORE. YOU ALSO HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT TAX CREDITS AND SUBSIDIES FOR CORPORATIONS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

    18. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT A PRESIDENT THAT LIED ABOUT A PERSONAL MATTER THAT HAD NO BEARING ON HIS ABILITY TO LEAD THE COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF OFFICE, BUT IT IS PERFECTLY OKAY THAT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT HAS VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION BECAUSE HE IS “DECISIVE” AND MAKES BOLD MOVES ( never mind that he lied to the American people and to the Congress about the intel on Iraq).

    19. YOU BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUALS BELONG IN THE CLOSET, THAT THEY ARE DEVIANT, GODLESS GAY FORNICATORS ( that many of you subconsciously would like to try once) AND THAT ANY PUBLIC DISPLAY OF RELIGION IS OKAY ( as long as it is a Christian display).

    20. YOU BELIEVE THAT EVEN IF A DEMOCRAT RETURNS MONEY THAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM CIRCUITOUSLY BY A COMMUNIST COUNTRY link, IT IS STILL VALID TO BRING IT UP AS A TALKING POINT, NO MATTER THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE TAKEN MONEY FROM THE SAUDIS LINK. YOU ALSO HAVE TO IGNORE OTHER IMPLICATIONS link.

    21. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS MERELY COINCIDENTAL THAT EVERY TALKING HEAD ON T.V. AND RADIO, AND EVERY REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR WILL COME OUT AND SAY THE SAME TALKING POINT ON ANY GIVEN DAY, AND THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COORDINATED EFFORT FOR EVERYBODY TO STAY ON THE SAME PAGE, AND GOD HELP YOU IF YOU CRITICIZE THE ADMINISTRATION IN ANY MANNER. YOU ALSO BELIEVE THAT IT IS BETTER THAT FEWER PEOPLE VOTE, AND THAT IT IS PERFECTLY FINE THAT PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE PAID TO COUNT OUR VOTES, EVEN IF THEIR MACHINES CAN BE HACKED INTO, HAVE NO PAPER TRAIL, AND THE OWNERS OF THOSE COMPANIES ARE REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN DONORS. ( now, wake up and educate yourself, the current path our country is on will eventually turn us into a third world country with no manufacturing inside our borders, and an elimination of the middle class. This is path the ultra-wealthy want to see this country follow; is that where you would like to see our country go?)

  14. Rich from Paso
    September 12, 2006 at 10:50 pm

    BOB, YOUR COMMENTS WERE JUST MEAN, UNFOUNDED ON ANYTHING SUBSTANTIVE AND WERE TOTALLY BASED ON YOUR WARPED VIEW OF CONSERVATIVES WHILE JERRY’S COMMENTS WERE WITTY, SUCCIENT AND INDICATIVE OF DEMOCRAT HYPOCRACY. YOUR COMMENTS WERE VERY PREACHY AND WERE DESPARATE FOR US TO BELIEVE THAT ALL CONSERVATIVES ARE EVIL WHILE JERRY’S JUST VOICED HIS OPINION AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.

    YOU DON’T EVEN GET A “NICE TRY” FOR YOUR EFFORT. YOU GET A “BE ORIGINAL”.

  15. JerryDinAZ
    September 13, 2006 at 2:44 pm

    Anonymous said TO Mr. JERRDINAZ….
    “I’m deeply offended by your comment about homosexuality: “

    RESEARCHERS FOUND THAT MALE AND FEMALE BRAINS ARE CHEMICALLY AND STRUCTURALLY DIFFERENT. THESE RESEARCHERS NOW SUSPECT THAT HUMAN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IS THE OUTCOME OF SEX HORMONES ACTING ON THE BRAIN DURING A CRITICAL PERIOD BEFORE BIRTH. IN THEIR STUDIES, THEY FOUND THAT SEX HORMONES INJECTED INTO FETAL OR NEWBORN LABORATORY ANIMALS MADE THEM ADOPT BEHAVIORS TYPICAL OF THE OPPOSITE SEX – A FEMALE RAT GIVEN THE MALE SEX HORMONE TESTOSTERONE SHORTLY AFTER BIRTH DID NOT OVULATE OR SHOW FEMALE MATING BEHAVIOR. AN ADULT MALE RAT DEPRIVED OF MALE HORMONES BY CASTRATION AND INJECTED WITH THE FEMALE SEX HORMONE ESTROGEN ASSUMED THE FEMALE MATING POSTURE.

    THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH. PEOPLE THAT SUFFER FROM MENTAL DISABILITIES – DEMENTIA, SCHIZOPHRENIA, PSYCHOSIS AND OTHER MENTAL DISORDERS, WHICH ARE ALSO DUE TO CHEMICAL IMBALANCES – EXHIBIT ABNORMAL AND IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR. HOWEVER, WITH THE PROPER MEDICATIONS, THE CHEMICAL IMBALANCES IN THESE PEOPLE ARE REVERSED AND RETURNED TO APPROPRIATE LEVELS THAT ENABLE THEM TO LIVE PRODUCTIVE NORMAL LIVES. THIS SAME PRINCIPLE SHOULD BE APPLIED TO PERSONS SUFFERING FROM HOMOSEXUALITY.

    WE CAN “WASH” OUR CONVERSATIONS IN AMERICA TO TRY NOT TO OFFEND ANYBODY OR GROUP…BUT THAT DOESN’T CHANGE THE TRUTH.

  16. Tony
    September 13, 2006 at 2:44 pm

    I totally agree with you Dave. if you think about this, What would make the Replublicans and George Bush look good? Stopping the attack on the twin towers. I would not doubt that they knew something was going to happen, But what and where, would be a little harder to know, especially with the wall that was built between the Agencies responsible for investigating these issues by the Clinton Administration.

  17. Dave Congalton
    September 13, 2006 at 3:42 pm

    If you heard the show on Tuesday, Santa Maria Bill came on to respond to President Bush’s speech, but we also drifted into 9-11 conspiracy, Building 7, etc, so I will take time tonight (Wednesday) from 6 to 7 and will read aloud excerpts from the Popular Mechanics report to rebut the conspiracy folks.

  18. The New Tone of San Luis Obispo
    September 13, 2006 at 6:13 pm

    Jerry,

    Sadly, homosexuals have a chioce on how they behave, just as bestiality people, pedophiles, fornicators, and adlutery. Heck, we can even decide if we tell the truth or not. Even more sad, may homosexuals have an experience of being molested by a male, causing sexual confusion. In the case of the lesbians, many are from abusive homes then abusive men in their lives. Sad, but they don’t have to act on their urges, and still are lived by Jesus Christ that they can confess their sin, as any other person can, and be washed and be a new creation in Christ.

  19. Dave Congalton
    September 13, 2006 at 7:25 pm

    New Tone,

    And where is the research exactly that show homosexuals “choose” to be gay? You’re confusing your religion with scientific research.

    Talk about a conspiracy . . . .

  20. Rich from Paso
    September 13, 2006 at 8:27 pm

    I PERSONALLY DON’T THINK YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR SEXUALITY ANYMORE THAN YOU CAN CHOOSE WHAT GENDER YOU ARE. THAT SAID, I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU DO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS SO LONG AS IT IS NOT WITH CHILDREN OR THE UNWILLING.

  21. JerryDinAZ
    September 14, 2006 at 12:07 am

    SOME STATE THAT SIMPLY DUE TO THE GENETIC MAKEUP OF THE HUMAN RACE IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THAT HOMOSEXUALITY WOULD BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A CHOICE. IN AN ANALYSIS OF BIOLOGICAL THEORIES OF CAUSATION, BY DR. TAHIR I JAZ, M.D., HE STATES, “OF ALL ANIMALS, HUMAN BEINGS ARE THE MOST GENETICALLY INDETERMINATE. IN THE WORDS OF DR. JOSEPH WORTIS, DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHIATRY, STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: ‘NO COMPLEX HIGH-LEVEL BEHAVIOR OF THE HUMAN SPECIES CAN BE REDUCED TO GENETIC ENDOWMENT, NOT LANGUAGE, NOT HOUSE BUILDING AND NOT SEXUAL BEHAVIOR.’ PREFERENTIAL AND EXCLUSIVE HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT NATURALLY FOUND IN ANY INFRAHUMAN MAMMALIAN SPECIES AND IT WOULD BE ODD FOR SUCH BEHAVIOR IN HUMANS TO BE GENETICALLY DETERMINED.” IT IS DR. TAHIR’S OPINION THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS COMPLETELY A CHOICE AS IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR IT TO BE GENETICALLY DETERMINED. HE FURTHER CITES VARIOUS ACCOUNTS OF LEADING PSYCHOLOGISTS AND PSYCHIATRISTS, SUCH AS MASTERS AND JOHNSON, DIEBER, BARNHOUSE, SOCARIDES, CAPPON, HADDEN, RIBINSTEIN AND LEIF, WHO HAVE REPORTED VERY HIGH RATES OF SUCCESS IN CURING INDIVIDUALS OF THEIR HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES.

  22. doofus
    September 14, 2006 at 2:46 am

    TOO BAD THERE’S NO CURE FOR MY STUPIDITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STUDIES SHOW THAT THOSE WHO ARE MOST CRITICAL OF HOMOSEXUALS HAVE LATENT TENDENCIES IN THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE ASHAMED OF. I WISH I COULD TIE MY OWN SHOES SO I COULD LEAVE THE HOUSE!

  23. The New Tone of San Luis Obispo
    September 14, 2006 at 4:24 am

    So, no one is disputing my life’s observation that homosexuality is a choice. It may not seem like a choice to the individual since they have trama in their lives that motivates them to act out.

    Sure, all people have the potential to be homosexual. I could decide to go trolling in a gay spot tonight. If I were sent to prison, many of my fellow inmates who are not homosexual would participate in homosexual activities.

    If you do not believe me, listen to Dr. Drew on Lovelines (107.3 fm) 10 – midnight. Almost everytime a gay calls, they will admit to trama in their life that helped shape them. Some, a low percentage, do not. Dr. Drew is as non-judgemental and non-religious as they come. He is not against homosexual activity, as I am not, but he does help people suffering from this problem to undestant it and try to live with it.

    I don’t care if you want to be gay, just don’t force it down my throat, no pun intended for you gays. Be gay. Have a good one. Don’t tell me or my children how gay you are, and how I need to think you are normal and healthy. The gay lifestyle is neither.

    Furthermore, you can do what you want to in your own life, but I don’t need to hear how bad I am since I do not think it is wonderful to be gay. I know God wants you to come to him and stop sinning, but that is your choice and is between you an God.

  24. Bob from San Luis
    September 14, 2006 at 4:35 am

    JerryDinAZ: “There are lies, damn lies and statistics” as Mark Twain so eloquently put it. Look hard and long enough and you will find scientific research, or Bible passages or statistics that will back up any point of view that you want. I find myself agreeing with Rich many times, like in this post he mentioned that he didn’t care what grown-ups do behind closed doors, as long as it doesn’t involve children or unwilling participants. I also really like his proposal for ground zero of building new buildings there, and his mention of remembering those who died on that horrible day. I do take issue with his “review” of my attempt at answering your listing of what a Democrat believes by posting my view of what a Republican “must” believe to be a Republican. All I did was “reverse” the criteria that Jerry used. Oh well.
    As for the “Conspiracy” surrounding 9/11, most of the explosives planting, missile firings, and all of that, nah, I really can’t see any of those as “plausible”. Is it possible that the Bush Administration “looked” the other way, purposely scheduled the “training” exercises that were going on and allowed the hijackers to get through security, not realizing how devastating the attacks would be? I would like to believe that no one in a position of authority in our government could not be a party to any such action, but I am not prepared to say that.
    And Jerry, I do you give you points for encouraging everyone to get out and vote. I am embarrased that you are being “spoofed” by doofus.

  25. Dave Congalton
    September 14, 2006 at 8:39 am

    Wow, GREAT research, New Tone! The best you can do is cite “Loveline”????? We’re going to base public policy on people you hear on “Loveline”????????

    Do your homework. Do the research. Only then will you realize how wrong and narrow-minded you are.

  26. JerryDinAZ
    September 14, 2006 at 4:10 pm

    BEING GAY “IS” A CHOICE!
    DAVE AND BLOGGERS…YOU WANT SOLID RESEARCH EVIDENCE THAT BEING GAY IS A CHOICE…HERE IT IS!
    ***********************************
    Jeffrey Satinover’s conclusions in “The Gay Gene”:
    There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is genetic–and none of the research itself claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.
    —Jeffrey Satinover, M.D., The Journal of Human Sexuality, 1996, p.8.
    ***********************************
    The American Psychological Association says:

    “Various theories have proposed differing sources for sexual orientation…However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors.”
    ***********************************
    P-FLAG (“Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays”) offers a booklet on the biological research into the origins of homosexuality.

    Prepared with the assistance of Dr. Clinton Anderson of the American Psychological Association, this 1995 publication is entitled, “Why Ask Why? Addressing the Research on Homosexuality and Biology.”

    This pamphlet says:

    “To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe that there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date
    ***********************************
    Byne, a psychiatrist with a doctorate in biology, and Parsons (1993) carefully analyzed all the major biological studies of homosexuality. They found none that definitively supported a biological theory of causation.

    –W. Byne and B. Parsons, “Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised.” Archives of General Psychiatry 50, no.3.)
    ***********************************

    psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.:

    “Like all complex behavioral and mental states, homosexuality is…neither exclusively biological nor exclusively psychological, but results from an as-yet-difficult-to-quantitate mixture of genetic factors, intrauterine influences…postnatal environment (such as parent, sibling and cultural behavior), and a complex series of repeatedly reinforced choices occurring at critical phases of development.”
    When “gay gene” researcher Hamer was asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, he himself replied, “Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors…not negate the psychosocial factors.”
    ***********************************
    –“Gay Genes, Revisited: Doubts arise over research on the biology of homosexuality,” Scientific American, November 1995, P. 26.
    Psychiatrists Friedman and Downey state that “a biopsychosocial model” best fits our knowledge of causation, with various combinations of temperament and environmental events leading to homosexuality. They say:

    “Despite recent neurobiological findings suggesting homosexuality is genetically-biologically determined, credible evidence is lacking for a biological model of homosexuality.”
    –R. Friedman, M.D. and J. Downey, M.D., Journal of Neuropsychiatry, vol. 5, No. 2, Spring l993.
    sociologist Steven Goldberg, Ph.D.:

    “Virtually all of the evidence argues against there being a determinative physiological causal factor and I know of no researcher who believes that such a determinative factor exists…such factors play a predisposing, not a determinative role…I know of no one in the field who argues that homosexuality can be explained without reference to environmental factors.”

    –S. Goldberg (1994) When Wish Replaces Thought: Why So Much of What You Believe is False. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books.
    ***********************************

  27. Rich from Paso
    September 14, 2006 at 5:00 pm

    THE REASON WHY I DISMISSED YOUR RETORT TO JERRY WAS THAT IT WAS VERY SNARKY AND SMACKED OF “THAT’S WHAT YOU THINK? WELL, I’LL SHOW YOU!”, LIKE YOU TOOK IT PERSONALLY. THERE WERE SOME VERY MEAN-SPIRITED (AS MUCH AS IT PAINS ME TO USE THAT TRITE TERM) PARTS OF YOUR RESPONSE. TELL YOU WHAT… I WILL POST THE 20 THINGS CONSERVATIVES OUGHT TO BELIEVE AND
    AND YOU POST 20 THINGS LIBERALS OUGHT TO BELIEVE AND THEN WE WILL COMPARE NOTES.

    ABOUT YOUR POSTING THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION “LOOKED AWAY” TO ALLOW 9-11 TO HAPPEN BUT UNDERESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF CARNAGE FROM THE ATTACK. THAT IS EQUALLY PREPOSTEROUS AS THEY DID IT THEMSELVES. A LITTLE CATHOLISM HERE, SINS OF OMISSION ARE JUST AS BAD AS SINS OF CONTRITION. IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE AT ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT WOULD LOOK AWAY TO LET IT HAPPEN. THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, NOT COMPUTER BLIPS OR STATISTICS. I CANNOT AND WILL NOT SUBSCRIBE TO ANY CONSPIRACY THEORY BASED ON SOMEONE ALLOWING OR CONSPIRING TO MAKE 9-11 HAPPEN. ASSUMING THAT SM BILL ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT HERE (AND THAT IS SOMETIMES SUSPECT) AND ACCEPTING THE POINT FOR DISCUSSIONS SAKE, HE ASKED WHY WERE THERE EXERCISES GOING ON TO REHEARSE FOR THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED ON 9-11? I SAY THAT IT HAPPENS MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THAT THEY JUST HAD BAD TIMING. OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUITY HAD A WHAT (AIRLINES INTO BUILDINGS) NOT A WHEN OR A WHERE. WHAT, WHEN AND WHERE ARE THE THREE LEGS OF WHAT MAKES INTELLIGENCE ACTIONABLE. WHY WON’T SM BILL GIVE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CREDIT FOR AT LEAST TRYING TO PREPARE? I WAS SO HAPPY TO HEAR THAT BILL CLINTON PERSONALLY HIRED THE CUSTOMS AGENT THAT STOPPED THE NEW YEARS BOMBER FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY. AT LEAST THAT IS THE SOPHISTRY THAT SM BILL USED.

    HEY DAVE! SM BILL WAS EQUAL TIME TO THE PRESIDENT (2 HOURS OF SM BILL VS 15 MINUTES OF THE PRESIDENT)? NO NEED FOR THE FAIRNESS DOCRTINE WITH RATIOS LIKE THAT.

    FINALLY, ONCE AGAIN HE SLAMS THE BUSH ADMINSTRATION FOR NOT PULLING OUT ALL OF THE STOPS TO PREVENT 9-11 IN THE FIRST 9 MONTHS OF THE ADMINSITRATION WHEN BILL CLINTON HAD SEVEN FUCKING YEARS!!!!!!!!!! TO STOP BIN LADEN.

    IS THIS LIBERAL MATH?

    8 YEARS = 9 MONTHS OR

    96 MONTHS = 9 MONTHS

    NO WONDER OUR SCHOOLS ARE FAILING, LIBERALS CAN’T UNDERSTAND THAT 96 MONTHS IS GREATER THAN 9 MONTHS.

    CLINTON HAD 5 OPPORTUNITIES TO GET BIN LADEN IN 7 YEARS, BUSH HAS HAD 3 OPPORTUNITIES IN 5 YEARS. I THINK BUSH GETS 2 MORE OPPORTUNITIES IN 2 MORE YEARS BEFORE HE BECOMES AS INEFFECTIVE AS BILLY-BOY (SM BILL’S TERM). BUT BUSH WILL NEVER BE AS INCOMPETENT BECAUSE THOSE 7 YEARS OF INCOMPETENCE OF CLINTON PAVED THE WAY FOR THSOSE PEOPLE TO DIE ON 9-11. NO ONE WILL ALLOW THE INCOMPETENCE THAT BILL CLINTON SHOWED PRIOR TO 9-11 HAPPEN AGAIN.

  28. JerryDinAZ
    September 14, 2006 at 6:07 pm

    HOW BOUT SOME FUN?

    Q: What’s the difference between a Democrat politician and a leech?
    A: A leech quits sucking your blood after you die.

    Q: What is the difference between a liberal and a puppy?
    A: A puppy stops whining after it grows up.

    Q: What is the difference between an intelligent liberal and Bigfoot?
    A: Bigfoot has been spotted.

    Q: How many liberals does it take to change a light Bulb?
    A: At least ten, as they will need to have a discussion about whether or not the light bulb exists. Even if they can agree
    upon the existence of the light bulb they still may not change it to keep from alienating those who might use other forms
    of light.
    ***********************************
    A Democrat found a magic genie’s lamp and rubbed it. The genie said, “I will grant you one wish.” He said, “I wish I
    were smarter”. So the genie made him a Republican.
    ***********************************
    Question: You’re walking down a deserted street with your spouse and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous
    looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand
    is a .357 Magnum and you are an expert shot.
    You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

    Liberal Answer:

    Well that’s not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done
    anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids?
    Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this
    situation? Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content
    to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all
    so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

    Conservative Answer:

    BANG!
    ***********************************
    Dear Abby,

    My husband is a liar and a cheat. He has cheated on me from the beginning, and, when I confront him, he denies
    everything. What’s worse, everyone knows that he cheats on me. It is so humiliating.

    Also, since he lost his job four years ago, he hasn’t even looked for a new one. All he does all day is smoke cigars,
    cruise around, and talk with his buddies while I have to work to pay the bills. Since our daughter went away to college
    he doesn’t even pretend to like me and hints that I may be a lesbian. What should I do?

    Signed,

    Clueless
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Dear Clueless,

    Grow up and dump him. Good grief, woman. You don’t need him any more. You’re a United States Senator from New
    York. Act like it!

  29. Tim from Morro Bay
    September 15, 2006 at 1:51 am

    Dave
    I can’t believe you just gave this asshole (jerry) 90 minutes.

  30. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 15, 2006 at 2:02 am

    I should follow up. I’m new here so bear with me. I can’t believe the hatred and vitriol that this Jerry guy is capable of. I am a gay man and think that Jerry really has some issues he needs to work out. I don’t care what Jerry’s and New Tones conclusions are – I’ve been gay since I got my first boner. As long as I can remember I was attracted to men – it was never a CHOICE!!! it just was. I was never molested or victimized vas a child. I was raised in a strict christian household (wait – maybe I was victimized :)) My parents loved me – up until I told them I was gay. Now I am ostracized – not allowed to visit family functions, or God forbid, bring my partner to meet my parents. I still believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and know that despite all our faults, He still loves us – even you New Tone and Jerry.
    BTW – I apologize for calling Jerry an asshole. He’s just unenlightened

    Tim

  31. Rich from Paso
    September 15, 2006 at 3:58 am

    SOMEONE ON THE AIR TODAY, MARK, FRED, TED, I DON’T KNOW WHICH SAID THAT SEAN HANNITY LIED WHEN HE SAID THAT CLINTON HAD CLINTON ON A SIVLER PLATER AND THAT HANNITY LIED BECAUSE CLINTON NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO GET BIN LADEN (UNLIKE BUSH — JUST HELPING YOU OUT, BOB)

    HERE IS A LINK WHERE BOTH BILL AND HILLARY ARE SAYIGN THAT 1) BIN LADEN WAS OFFERED TO THEM BY THE SUDANESE, 2) THEY FELT THAT THEY HAD “NO CONTROLLING LEGAL AUTHORITY” TO HOLD BIN LADEN. HILLARY’S COMMENTS ARE ESPECIALLY TRAGIC IN THE WAY SHE “UM, WELL, THE FACTS AS I KNOW THEM TODAY ARE FUZZY” LIKE THE LITTLE BOY CAUGHT WITH HIS HAND IN THE COOKIE JAR. SHE IS TRYING TO SPIN HER’S AND HER HUSBAND’S HANDS CLEAN OF THE BLOOD THEY SHARE FROM 9-11.

  32. The New Tone of San Luis Obispo
    September 15, 2006 at 4:18 am

    Hey Tim,

    I don’t hate you at all. I am sorry that you feel that way just because I cannot agree with your lifestyle. I know that Jesus Christ loves you, and since you belong to him his words will mean something to you even if you are inclined to go your own way.

    Here is what God has for you since you believe in Christ:

    Ephesians 4:17 “In the Lord’s name, then, I warn you: do not continue to live like the heathen whose thoughts are worthless and whose monds are in the dark. They have no part in the life that God gives, for they are completely ignorant and stubborn. They have lost all feeling of shame; they give themselves over to vice and do all sorts of indecent things without restraint” Good News Version

    It is clear from the scriptures that practicing homosexuality is a sin. It is a sin dealing with our physical bodies. It is not a sin to be inclined to be a homosexual, just to participate. Tim, if you are really a Christian, I ask you to reconsider where you are going with your life and try and get some help. It can be done and you can be free from the bondage you have found yourself in. I will pray for you. I care about you and really do hope you find happiness Tim. We are not enemies.

    I am not sure how this blog got on the gay subject, but it has stirred up the natives. Party on dudes!

  33. Anonymous
    September 15, 2006 at 5:13 am

    I know for a fact that every guy who has posted on this blog is gay. Big time!

  34. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 15, 2006 at 5:29 am

    New Tone

    We got on this subject from yours and jerry’s posts. I simply responded to those posts.
    Your bible quote does not in any way state that homosexuality is a sin. It talks about heathens and vice. Where does that translate into homosexuality? I am in a committed monogamous relationship – can you say the same of all your hetero friends?. I am in all ways just like you, except that I am in no way attracted to women, and I AM attracted to men. SO I should deny the feelings that God saw fit to give me, and pretend to be something I’m not in order to satisfy you and all the other homophobes? I’ve read the bible, many times, and I don’t see the interpretations as strictly as you. Who’s right? I have to believe I am, for I would never tell you or anyone how to live. Its not my or anyones place.
    I try to live my life as simply and peacefully as I can. I volunteer at the homeless shelter, the womens shelter, hell even the animal shelter. I take care of an elderly neighbor. I even go to church and give my time and money freely. Yet in your eyes I am less than worthy of Gods love, simply because I choose to love another man. You say “reconsider where you are going with your life.” Lets see – stable monogamous relationship; close supportive friends; volunteering much of my free time; home and business owner; devoted christian…My God, you’re right! What a terrible person I’ve become!!!
    I know I will never change your mind, but just remember – God still loves you, even if you practice intolerance.

    Tim

  35. moquiti
    September 15, 2006 at 5:59 am

    This thread is the most pathetic excuse for dialog that I have ever read outside of a urinal. I think all you “boys” should get a life.

    I happened to tune into Dave’s show about Air America today (9/14), and he lamented about this thread, and how it exemplified how the blog which he has so generously hosted has been taken over by petty, selfish, small and bickering mini-minds who have no respect for either the thread, each other, or the host.

    As a media consumer who values intelligent dialog both on air, in the press, and in blogs, may I remind all of you trolls (since Dave seems too timid to mention it) that any of you can be excluded from posting (do you hear me Jerry?) and any of your posts can be wiped off the digital universe forever.

    So shape up, or ship out.

  36. Bob from San Luis
    September 15, 2006 at 7:11 am

    Moquiti: I like to nit-pik sometimes, so tell me, what do you usually find worth reading inside of a urinal?

  37. JerryDinAZ
    September 15, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    TIM YOUR RESPONSE BEGS A RESPONSE BACK…AND SINCE YOU PUBLISHED PERSONAL INFORMATION ALL IS FAIR…
    YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU THINK YOUR HOMOSEXUALITY IS TOTALLY GENETIC DESPITE EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH THAT UNQUESTIONABLY PROVES THE CONTRARY. SCIENCE, AND MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS SAY YOUR HOMOSEXUALITY IS ENVIRONMENTAL, AND YOU PROVED IT IN YOUR RESPONSE.
    YOU STATED YOU WERE RAISED IN A SEXUALLY REPRESSED HOME THAT CALLED IT SELF “CHRISTIAN” (THOSE THAT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE NOT RAISED IN A CHRISTIAN HOME)…BUT RATHER IN A REPRESSIVE AND ABUSIVE “ENVIRONMENT”. YOU HAD NO HEALTHY WAY TO RELATE TO YOUR PUBERTY OR “BONER HOOD” AS YOU PUT IT, SINCE THE TOPIC OF SEX WAS PERVERTED IN YOUR HOME…SO YOUR ONLY WAY TO MAKE YOUR POINT OF REVOLT WAS TO REVOLT TO THE CORE OF YOUR PARENTS REPRESSION! YOUR SEXUALITY!!
    YOU OFFER FURTHER PROOF BY STATING THAT YOU ARE STILL OSTRACIZED FROM YOUR PARENTS…THAT MAKES THE PROFESSIONALS POINT EVEN MORE PROFOUNDLY! THEN AND NOW YOUR HOMOSEXUALITY IS BASED ON YOUR REJECTION AND REVOLT TO YOUR REPRESSIVE AND ABUSIVE PARENTS.
    ONCE YOU COME TO GRIPS WITH A YOUR CORRECT YET INAPPROPRIATELY ACTED ON REVOLT OF YOUR ABUSIVE PARENTS, YOU CAN BEGIN TO HEAL EMOTIONALLY AND SEXUALLY. I WISH YOU THE BEST…YOU SEEM ANGRY AND TERRIBLY UNSETTLED IN YOUR LIFE CHOICE…THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE WITH MOST HONEST HOMOSEXUALS.
    THERE IS HELP…ASK AND I CAN SEND SOME GOOD REFERENCES.

  38. moquiti
    September 15, 2006 at 10:08 pm

    bob from san luis said …
    Moquiti: I like to nit-pik sometimes, so tell me, what do you usually find worth reading inside of a urinal?

    since you asked, the National Review works just fine for me.

  39. moquiti
    September 15, 2006 at 10:27 pm

    This link is for rich from paso, and for those others here who also believe in the Easter bunny:

    http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

    If you remember at least a little of your High school physics lessons, you’ll recall those sticky little things called the Laws of Physics. One of them is called conservation of momentum and is used in the above-linked analysis of the falling mass of the tower floors. I must warn the trolls out there, that the presentation is plain enough that it may actually threaten your assumptions. Relax, the author does not hail from the Pleiades, nor does her site link to loosechange911.

    This work was presented at the 2006 Society for Experimental Mechanics Annual Conference. Adam’s Mark Hotel St. Louis, Missouri USA June 7, 2006 by Dr. Judy Wood, professor of Mechanical Engineering

    Check it out.

  40. Rich from Paso
    September 15, 2006 at 11:16 pm

    MOQUITI, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY EASILY SWAYED BY IDIOTS AND SLACK-JAWED MOUTH BREATHERS. YOUR BILLIARD BALL WEBSITE IS TOTAL CRAP. FIRST, THE AUTHOR TOTALLY DISREGARDS THAT THE WTC TOWERS HAVE NO INTERNAL SUPPORT STRUCTURES. ALL OF THE WTC TOWERS WERE DESIGNED WITH A SKELETON ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BUILDING, THUS CREATING A BALLOON POPPING EFFECT AS THE WEIGHT OF THE OTHER FLOORS INPACTED ON TOP OF IT. ONLY THE MASS OF THE TOP 20 FLOORS IS COLLAPSING DOWNWARD, NOT THE ENTIRE BUILDING. FURHTERMORE, IF THE WTC WAS COLLAPSED AT THE GROUND LEVEL, THEN THE ENTIRE MASS OF THE BUILDING WOULD BE MOVING, NOT JUST THE TOP 20 FLOORS AND THE STEEL EXOSKELTON OF THE BUILDING WOULD NOT BE STANDING BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED DURING THE INITIAL BLAST. THE AUTHOR’S DATA SUPPORTS THE FACT THAT THE TOP 15 OR SO FLOORS ACCERATED AS IT REACHED THE GROUND. IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED THE FOOTAGE OF THE TOWERS’ COLLAPSE, YOU WILL CLEARLY SEE THAT AT THE TOWERS TOP 20 FLOORS, WHERE THE F*&^ING PLANES HIT, WAS WHERE THE COLLAPSE STARTED.

    SO, LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR FULL OF CRAP WEBSITE POST… HERE IS THE SCENARIO: THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO CREATE THE WAR ON TERRORISM, SO THEY PLANT BOMBS 20 FLOORS OR SO FROM THE TOPS OF WTC TOWERS, THEN THEY CONVINCE 10 MUSLIM ISLAMOFACSIST SHITBAGS TO HIJACK TWO PLANES, KILL THE CREW AND FLY THEM INTO THE EXACT SPOT WHERE THE DEMOLITIONS ARE PLACED, KILLING EVERYONE ON BOARD. AFTER WAITING 45 MINUTES AFTER THE PLANES HIT, SOMEONE IN THE BUSH ADMINSTRATION ORDERS THE DEMOLITIONS TO BE SET OFF COLLAPSING THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS KILLING 2,800+ AMERICANS. IS THAT ABOUT IT? IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THEN YOU ARE AMONG THOSE TOTAL IDIOTS THAT ARE THE DUMBEST THING THIS SIDE OF THE FORMER PLANET PLUTO. YOU PROBABLY BELIEVE THAT ELVIS IS ALIVE AND BUSH 41 FLEW TO TEHRAN IN AN SR-71 TO HAVE IRAN HOLD THE HOSTAGES UNTIL INAUGARATION DAY 1980. THERE IS NO REASON OR LOGIC OR, MOST IMPORTANTLY FACTS TO BE FOUND ON THE BILLIARD BALL WEBSITE.

  41. moquiti
    September 16, 2006 at 12:08 am

    Here’s a fact that all of us missed before: Jerry has multiple personality disorder. He’s also posting as “rich from paso.” This is apparent to anyone by the rhetoric, and that Jerry forgot to release his capslock key when he was just now posting as “rich from paso.” This is the real reason why Jerry writes in caps: to give everyone the impression that there’s another soul in the universe that shares his oddball view of the world.

    Jerry, the game is up. Come clean. You still shamelessly believe in the Easter bunny, don’t you? It’s okay, we understand.

  42. Rich from Paso
    September 16, 2006 at 1:12 am

    HEY JERRY, I GUESS THAT MOQUITI DOESN’T LISTEN TO DAVE’S SHOW, DOES HE?

  43. JerryDinAZ
    September 16, 2006 at 1:25 am

    MOQUITO
    Pronunciation[mo-kee-toe]
    –noun,
    1. a dipterous insect of the family Culicidae, they suck the blood of animals, and itelligent bloggers. Often transmitting certain diseases, as malaria, yellow fever, and facist liberalism.
    2. Military. a twin-engined, two-seat British fighter and bomber of the Iraq War, made largely of plywood and having a top speed of 3 mph. Mostly used to drop inane comments and insults due to lack of a brain
    ———————————–

    [Origin: 1575–85; < Sp, equiv. to mosc(a) fly (< L musca) + -ito dim. suffix]

  44. Rich from Paso
    September 16, 2006 at 3:14 am

    WHENEVER YOU PRESENT FACTS AND LOGIC TO A LIBERAL AND THEIR ONLY RESPONSE IS A LAME AD HOMINEM, YOU KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT AND THEY ARE ADMITTING THEY ARE WRONG.

  45. Tin in Morro Bay
    September 16, 2006 at 3:42 am

    Jerry

    You continually amaze me how you can take someones argument and completely twist it around to make your “facts” fit. First of all, I never said that I grew up in an abusive or repressive household – nothing could be further from the truth. I said ‘strict christian household.’ By that I mean my parents took us to church, made us say our prayers and grace, taught us the bible, had a strong moral code and set of rules that we had to live by. We all had our chores to do and we weren’t allowed to play until they were done. Thats what I mean by strict. My parents were very loving and caring towards all of us kids – I NEVER felt unloved by them until I told them I was gay. Furthermore, they were anything but repressed sexually – they were very much in love with each other and expressed it physically.
    I also never said my being gay was genetic – I don’t know if it is or isn’t, I just know that I am who I am. Jerry, are you genetically predisposed to being a hateful, judgemental jerk? Or is that learned behavior?
    I just re-read my post and your post, and its amazing the transformation of facts that you made. You took what I said and completely twisted it and read into it.
    You state that “THEN AND NOW YOUR HOMOSEXUALITY IS BASED ON YOUR REJECTION AND REVOLT TO YOUR REPRESSIVE AND ABUSIVE PARENTS” My parents want nothing to do with me. I’ve tried to speak with them, tell them I forgive them, want to find some common ground to re-establish a relationship with them. All they can say is – ‘are you still Gay – then we want nothing to do with you’

    Jerry, try this. Pretend your parents hated and rejected you because of, say, your conservative beliefs. They refused to acknowledge you or your wife and refused to allow you into their lives – how would you feel? Would you change who you are to placate them, or would you stick to your beliefs?

    You further state that “YOU SEEM ANGRY AND TERRIBLY UNSETTLED IN YOUR LIFE CHOICE…THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE WITH MOST HONEST HOMOSEXUALS.” Where does this come from? I never said anything like that. The only, and I mean ONLY thing I am unhappy about in my life is that I can’t reconcile with my parents. I have a great life – I own a house on the beach in morro bay – recently appraised at 3 million plus; I own a very succesful business; I have a loving and dedicated life partner of 15 plus years; and many, many friends. Really Jerry, how many “honest homosexuals” do you know? Actually, and I think I just figured it all out, how well do you WISH you KNEW them? (and yes I do mean that in the biblical sense) Maybe you should examine your own repressed homosexuality, and stop hating and judging others.

    xoxox

    Tim

  46. mikey ray
    September 16, 2006 at 5:26 am

    Its hard to be a conservative these days. Somehow, you have to believe that:

    1. Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

    2. The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U. N. resolutions against Iraq.

    3. “Standing Tall for America” means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

    4. A woman can’t be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multinational corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

    5. Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you’re a conservative radio host. Then it’s an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

    6. The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans’ benefits and combat pay.

    7. Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run for governor of California as a Republican.

    8. If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won’t have sex.

    9. A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our longtime allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

    10. HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of the public at heart.

    11. Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

    12. Global warming and tobacco’s link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

    13. It is okay that the Bush family has done $millions of business with the Bin Laden family.

    14. Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a “we can’t find Bin Laden” diversion.

    15. A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

    16. Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

    17. The public has a right to know about Hillary’s cattle trades, but George Bush’s Harken Oil stock trades are none of our business.

    18. You support states’ rights, which means former Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a right to adopt.

    19. What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the ’80s is irrelevant.

    20. Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

    21. Affirmative Action is wrong but that it is ok for your Daddy and his friends to get you into Yale, the Texas Air National Guard, Harvard Business School, part ownership of Harken Oil, part ownership of the Texas Rangers, the Governorship of Texas and then have the Supreme Court Appoint you President of the USA.

  47. moquiti
    September 16, 2006 at 5:50 am

    This is in reply to both rich from paso and jerrydinaz, because to reply to one is to reply to both (per my previous post).

    The reason my previous comment had the character of an ad hominem reply (thank you, rich, for the clarity) was because the post I was replying to contained not one fact about the World Trade Towers which could be (or was) substantiated. It was, in short, pure BS, through and through. In truth, rich’s rant demonstrated such a level of ignorance and lack of curiosity that it gave me some doubt as to the survivability of our species.

    Now a reasonable person might wonder why another reasonable person might reply to a post that was pure BS, and in fact, I declined. I made an observation based in evidence at hand, as an example of the simple skill of deductive reasoning – a simple skill that neither rich from paso nor jerrdinaz are in apparent possession of.

    So, rich: backatcha. If you’re interested in discussing the “original” topic of the thread in an open manner, you may elicit a reasonable discussion of both facts and assumptions. If you’re going to reply with total unsubstantiated BS, you’ll just have to remain whistling in the dark.

  48. JerryDinAZ
    September 16, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    TIM,
    I APPRECIATE YOUR ATTEMPTS AT AN EXPLANATION…YET YOUR DIATRIBES ARE FILLED WITH AMBIGUITIES! MY ORIGINAL CONTENTION, BASED ON MY ANALYSIS OF YOUR COMMENTS, IS THAT YOU WERE NOT RAISED IN A CHRISTIAN HOME!
    CASE AND POINT IS THAT ONE OF THE FOUNDATIONAL BELIEFS OF A TRUE BLOOD BOUGHT CHRISTIAN IS LOVE! THE SECOND, AS IT RELATES TO SIN, IS HATE THE SIN…LOVE THE SINNER
    SINCE YOUR PARENTS REJECT YOU THEN & NOW AS A GAY…THIS IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT WHAT THESE FOLKS ARE MAY BE DIFFICULT TO PIN DOWN BUT ONE CONCLUSION GOES UNQUESTIONED… YOUR PARENTS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS
    CONGRATS ON YOUR 3 MILLION DOLLAR HOME AND YOUR BUSINESS AND YOUR GAY LOVER OF 15 YEARS…ALL OF THAT CAN’T, HOWEVER, BRING THE HUGE “MISSING” IN YOUR LIFE…”ACCEPTANCE AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE”. THAT SEEMS TO BE YOUR “RUB”.
    BE WELL MY FRIEND…MAYBE SOMEDAY YOU WILL SUCCEED IN WINNING OVER YOUR DEEPLY TROUBLED AND CONFLICTED DOGMATIC PARENTS.

  49. Anonymous
    September 17, 2006 at 12:06 am

    GO JERRY GO

  50. Anonymous
    September 17, 2006 at 2:26 am

    yeah, Jerry, go, far away, even farther than Arizona, please.

  51. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 17, 2006 at 10:02 pm

    Jerry
    Ive given up on my parents. Im mostly concerned about you and your bigoted, hateful ways. You know, God doesnt look too kindly on those who judge others. Dont worry though, I will pray for you, and ask for His forgiveness.

    Tim

  52. The New Tone of San Luis Obispo
    September 18, 2006 at 5:08 am

    Tim,

    I never said that I hate you or that I thought Jesus hates you. Nor do any serious Christians believe God hates any human being in the world. In fact, Jesus paid the penalty for all of us, even you and me.

    Also, Tim, I think you should consider that because you have the feelings to be homosexual, that they are normal and ok to act out. What do you think about the person who has sexual feelings towards animals or children? They may have those thoughts or feelings, but that does not make them right. And they are wrong if they act upon them. You may have, for whatever reason, had more of those urges. Jerry very likey had those urges but has kept them at bay and been apparently sucessfully involved in a hetrosexual relationship for some time now.

    You also asked how many of my apparently “straight” friends are monogamous? Almost all of my true friends are. I don’t really hang out with people who are not believers in Christ, and certainly not people who play church. Being a Christian is a full time job, and that is my most important duty: To serve Christ, not myself.

    Lastly, the bible certainly does condemn homosexuality. Not specifically in the passage I quoted you. Have you heard of sodomy? Take comfort in that it also condems adultery, fornication, murder, beastiality, meat with blood in it, and many other things too. They are all sin. We live in the day of grace and we are not killed for sin, but are able to come to Christ to have our sins removed spritually. No one is sent to hell for any sin today except the rejection of Christ. Without Christ, there is no hope. John 3:16 says it all for you.

    Sorry if you think I do not like you Tim, I would not waste time writing if I didn’t. And please do not hate me for not believing that all morals are relative. I just can’t follow you logic of if it feels good, it is from God.

    Jerry: You cannot say that Tim’s parents are not Christians. That is between them and God. Do you think that every Christian that makes mistakes of really bad decision is automatically not a Christian? I know no one who has always made right God-centered choices in their lives. Also, once you believe in Christ, you can’t remove your salvation. Just some thoughts from Jerry.

  53. JerryDinAZ
    September 18, 2006 at 2:23 pm

    1 John 3:8-10
    8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

    I GUESS MANY WILL ATTEMPT TO “DUMB THIS DOWN” OR “WASH IT” SO IT CAN FIT IN OUR POLITICALLY CORRECT TIMES…BUT THAT DOESN’T CHANGE WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS.
    BOTTOM LINE…IF YOU SIN AND KEEP ON SINNING WITHOUT A REPENTANT HEART, AND THEN SEEK HELP WITH YOUR SINNING YOU CANNOT BE OF THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.
    ANOTHER FACT THAT GAY PEOPLE AND SUPPORTERS OF A HOMOSEXUAL LIFE STYLE NEED TO COME TO GRIPS WITH IS… NOT ALL PEOPLE THAT ARE OPPOSED TO THE ABHORRENT GAY LIFESTYLE HAVE LATENT TENDENCIES. IT JUST MAY BE POSSIBLE THAT WE ARE OPPOSED TO SODOMITES AND THAT LIFESTYLE.
    AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD…I WILL CONTINUE TO HATE THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY WHILE LOVING THE SINNER INTO A REPENTANT LIFESTYLE FREE FROM THAT SIN…
    .

  54. Anonymous
    September 18, 2006 at 3:34 pm

    Jerry reminds me of my older brother who would talk LOUDER AND LOUDER UNTIL HE ‘WON’ THE ARGUMENT. All anger and insults and character assasination to intimidate people into not speaking their mind.

    A few thoughts on 9-11. Why didn’t Cheney’s terrorism task force EVER meet- even as warning after warning came in? Why did our gov’t fight so hard to stop the creation of the 9-11 Commission? Why was the bin Laden family – who has years of business ties with the Bush family- flown out of the country while the rest of us couldn’t get on a plane?

  55. Anonymous
    September 18, 2006 at 5:15 pm

    The one thing I truly don’t understand is why the argument for homosexuality always comes back to being “Un-Christian”. This country was founded on the beliel of freedom of religion. It was certainly not founded with principles of following only the Christian religion. So, why is something wrong in this country if it does not meet your idea of the standards of the Christian religion?

    Many other religions throughout the world have standards and beliefs that most Americans would think are wrong… but does it truly make it wrong? Who are you to decide or to judge? And why do we even care who someone loves and chooses to spend their life with?

    I find it hard to believe that we need to protect the sanctity of Britney Spear’s 55-hour “just for fun” marriage, while other loving couples who have been together for years are looked at as being wrong.

    I’m sorry, I guess I just belief in individual freedoms, equal rights for all citizens, and the separation of Church and State (or is that Church and Hate?)

    Jerry is no better than me because he is straight, and certainly none of us have a free ticket into heaven. But spreading hate and intolerance can’t be seen as a good Christian value either, can it?

  56. Rich from Paso
    September 18, 2006 at 5:23 pm

    The bin Laden family being whisked out of the country is a myth and has been debunked on Snopes.com.

    I can’t confirm or deny the Cheney “never ever” had any counterterrorism task force meetings point. The absence of data does not confirm the negative.

    Bush stated that he was against the 9/11 commission because it would be used for partisan assaults and arm chair quarterbacking, which it did. Furthermore, the commission failed to investigate the Clinton Administrations culpability in failing to stop the 9/11 attack. Hell, they put Jaime Gorelick on the commission and she was the one that forbade grand jury testimony from being given to intelligence agencies, i.e. the wall.

    As for the George W. Bush doing business with bin Laden’s family, that is true, sort of. Salem bin Laden did have business dealings with George W. Bush that ended in 1988, when Salem bin Laden died in a plane crash… IN 1988, 13 years before 9/11/01, and before Osama started Al Qaeda. It is in this article here. The article dissmisses the fact that Salem died in 1988 in favor of slandering Bush withg the accusation that he has current business dealings with the bin Laden family and that the Bush family assets should be seized, too. The author chooses to call Harken Oil “Bush’s” even though he states that Bush’s Spectrum 7 company was bought out by Harken and Bush was a director, not an owner. Bottom line is that, yes Bush had business with the now dead brother of Osama bin Laden 13 years ago. He did not have dealings with the family since.

    Point is that the extremist liberal left, like the extremist conservative right with Clinton, wishes to believe the worst about Bush and picks and chooses what constitutes support for their point. The irony is that is what they claim the Bush adminsitration did with the pre-Iraq war intelligence. Sounds like the left is projecting their own failings on Bush to me. They are all too willing to believe every myth about 9/11 or Bush and readily repeat the myth so then it becomes part of the lexicon, like the bin laden family flight on 9/11. Have no fear, though, your Bush hatred will come to a natural end in January 2009, and then you can start hating the next Republican president at that time.

  57. Anonymous
    September 19, 2006 at 12:23 am

    get off the gay stuff! I am tired of those sickos forcing their politics down my throat! )no pun intended!)
    Gays are not normal or well and deserve no special treatment. Keep it in the bedroom or closet!

  58. Anonymous
    September 19, 2006 at 12:38 am

    It’s not about special treatment at all… it’s simply about equal rights. Nobody’s forcing being gay down your or anyone else’s throat. However, people are forcing their own religious beliefs down ours. All we want are the same rights and privileges afforded to everyone else.

    How many times in history have groups fought for equal rights? We look back in awe that we actually lived in a socity that discriminated against women, blacks, Japanese, Chinese, etc. You wouldn’t think of doing it to them today, so why do it to us?

    As far as gays not being normal… who defines normal? Are you the definition of normal? Do you lead a “normal life”? Are we even striving for a “normal” society? I would hate to think of a day where everyone must conform to one segment’s religious beliefs. Sounds pretty reminiscent of a communist society… where people need to meet in secret in fear that they are persecuted by the government or others. So much for your great idea of keeping it in the closet.

  59. Anonymous
    September 19, 2006 at 1:33 am

    Wow!~ this is geting good! Now all those (the vast mojority) of Americans that dont want homesexuality in the public domain nor in the schools or anywhere else are all non christian communist haters?? That is HILLARIOUS!
    Gays will never get a legal marriaital status in America, nor in any traditional church. Homosexuality is not normal in any way shape or form. And I for one am tired of hearing about it. Take your poopy condoms back into your bedroom and get on with your track lighting and framed lithographs! You will never get the acceptance you all so desperatley want. why? because you are not normal!

  60. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 19, 2006 at 3:49 am

    New Tone and Jerry

    The fact that you equate sodomy with being gay just goes to show that you know absolutely nothing about the gay lifestyle. Without being too graphic, I have NEVER engaged in the act of sodomy – in either direction. Am I still a sinner? Do we have to get this graphic to define sin? What about oral sex and masturbation? The church banned that at one time and they were included in defining sodomy as any non-procreative sexual act. I’m assuming, Jerry and New Tone, that you only then have sex when you are trying to procreate?

    I prefer to think of myself as a christian, and I view the bible as a beautiful piece of literature. I believe, and this is where I will lose the fundamentalists and born-agains, that it is Gods word, but interpreted and translated by men. I don’t think it is meant to be so strictly interpreted.

    New Tone – you state that child molesters and bestialitists have these ‘normal’ feelings. I can’t honestly believe that you can compare being gay with those sort of people – they seek to victimize those who have no power to resist. It is a completely different motivation. I feel about child molesters as the worst sort of criminal. Someone who victimizes innocent children is evil at its very core. I am frankly deeply offended that you would even compare me with such people. It just reinforces my point – neither you or Jerry have the least understanding of what it means to be gay. You are simply blinded by your dogmatic interpretaion of the Bible. And, you fear deeply that which you do not understand. Please, one of you show me the exact quote in the bible which forbids homosexuality. I have read at length the various arguments about the specific passages, and there are widely differing interpretations depending on which translation you are using. Look, I would never question either of your faith in God – you KNOW He exists and loves you. Well, I KNOW he made me who I am and that I choose to express my love in the way He wants me to. SO I guess we’ll just never agree.

  61. Anonymous
    September 19, 2006 at 4:41 am

    MEGGA DITTOS JERRY “It was certainly not founded with principles of following only the Christian religion.” BS.

  62. JerryDinAZ
    September 19, 2006 at 4:44 am

    Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

    Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers…

    Romans 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion

  63. The New Tone of San Luis Obispo
    September 19, 2006 at 4:46 am

    tpJerry, I guess you do not understand yourself or the struggle of your new man/old man. Let me break it down for you:

    Old Nature- our sinful nature that is with us while we live here. Can do no good works.

    New Nature: Is a new creation in Christ, born in to us the second we ask Christ in to our hearts. This part of us cannot sin.

    Our self. The part of us that calls on Christ, and decides to serve our old or new nature. We can decide to do right, or not. All of us, even Christians, sin every single day. You are fooling yourself is you say you do not sin. As free willed people, we have the choice to do good or evil today. Once you become a Christian, Jerry, you are not on autopilot to live a sin-free life.

    Tim,

    I appreciate what you are saying. I wish I could just accept it. It makes sense on some level, you are not bothering anyone, you are responsible, and you are happy for the most part. That is good. I can respect that on a human level, and I would treat you as I would any other person out there.

    I just can’t get away from what I believe the bible says. In 1Corinthians 5, paul writes the early church (believers in Christ) that there were many problems in that group of Christians. In 1Corinthians 6:9 he wrote “Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God’s kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts or who steal or are greedy or are drunkards or who slander others or are thirves-none of these will possess God’s Kingdom”

    Homosexuals were not the worst listed, or are not called the most evil or anything. It is just as wrong as being a drunkard, or slanderer. It doesn’t say I am to hate, kill, or anything to people who participate. The bible does not even say they cannot be Christians. That is not what I think or believe.

    The church can mean many different things to many different people. Because the catholic church thought something or whatever does not make it right. To me, a person can believe what is in the bible. They don’t need to have a person tell them what to think or what to do. I believe that bible says that whatever is fun for both the man and woman in a marriage relationship, it is ok. All the other restrictions like you mentioned were put in place by, usually, Catholic leadership, who mostly are somomites. Do you really think that the pope is not gay? What type of guy hangs around with other guys and molests children other than priests of the church?

    Sorry if I am rambling here, my thoughts are going faster than I am able to or care to type.

    Take care Tim, I am learning, or at least trying to.

  64. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 19, 2006 at 5:57 am

    O.K, now I’m really confused!

    Jerry first – Jerry, the only specific quotes mentioning homesexuality are from the old testament. The new testament ones are translated in a few different ways and there is much debate as to the translation of certain words, given that the translation of the original greek has been lost. If you choose to live your life by what the old testament decrees, then you are even scarier than I previously thought. Oh and BTW, interesting choice of a quote – so you think I should be put to death? Wow, I really, really feel sorry for you
    I’m going to pray even harder for you to receive some help.

    New Tone – I really appreciate the fact that you are at least hearing what I am saying. (I don’t feel that from Jerry) I know that passage from Corinthians well. What I find interesting is that in the original text, Paul used the greek word ‘malakoi’ – that word is usually translated as ‘loose’,’fine’ ‘pliable’ or ‘soft’ He could have been talking about someone with pliable or loose morals. We just don’t know. If Paul was really trying to be specific about homosexuals why would’nt he have used the word ‘paiderasste’ – the common greek word at the time for male homosexuals? Furthermore, that passage was in Martin Luthers time used to identify masturbation, not homosexuality. When that practice became more socially acceptable, then was when the phrase was changed to ‘homosexual’. So you see, it is ALL subject to interpretation.

    I must admit that I’m a little baffled by your comments about the Pope and Catholicism in general. And, once again I think you are confusing homosexuality with child molestation. Molestation is about power – one persons power over another. Its like equating rape and sex. Rape is NOT a sex act, it is an act of violence. Same thing with molestation. It is about violating an implicit trust, and exerting control over the weaker.
    New Tone, I do want to thank you for at least trying to hear where I’m coming from. I think Jerry is a lost cause.
    Tim

  65. Anonymous
    September 19, 2006 at 4:38 pm

    12 reasons why gay people should never be married:

    1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses,
    polyester, and birth control are not natural.

    2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce
    children.
    Infertile couples and old people cannot get
    legally married because the world needs more children.

    3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because
    straight parents only raise straight children.

    4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since
    Britney Spears’s 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was
    meaningful.

    5. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time,
    and it hasn’t changed at all: women are property,
    Blacks can’t marry Whites, and divorce is illegal.

    6. Gay marriage should be decided by the people, not the
    courts
    , because the majority-elected legislatures, not
    courts, have historically protected the rights of
    minorities.

    7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a
    theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are
    always imposed on the entire country. That’s why we
    only have one religion in America.

    8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the
    same way that hanging around tall people makes you
    tall.

    9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all
    kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry
    their pets
    because a dog has legal standing and can
    sign a marriage license.

    10. Children can never succeed without both male and
    female role models at home.
    That’s why single parents
    are forbidden to raise children.

    11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society.
    Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time
    ,
    and we could never adapt to new social norms because
    we haven’t adapted to cars or longer lifespans.

    12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as
    marriage with a different name are better
    , because a
    “separate but equal” institution is always
    constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans
    worked just as well as separate marriages will for
    gays & lesbians.

  66. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 20, 2006 at 2:34 am

    Oh man, that is too good! Did you get that off the internet or write those yourself? I guess Jerry can’t muster up any more coherent arguments – not that that ever stopped him!

    Tim

  67. Brett
    September 20, 2006 at 9:24 pm

    Jerry, you are a total pile of shit. That’s right I didn’t misspeak. You are a pile of shit. Brett

  68. Bob from San Luis
    September 21, 2006 at 2:22 am

    I’m not sure how this devolved into a “discussion” about gay marriage or whatever, but, a very simple question to ask yourself if you an American that believes that the Constitution should apply to all Americans equally, and that we supposedly have a separation of church and state; Does the 14th Amendment state : “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”? If we agree that that is what the Constitution states, and that the church has no right to dictate how our laws are enforced, why is marriage between consenting adults who happen to be of the same gender not legal? Isn’t being married a legal arraignment? If the church is so powerful that what they say should be law, do you go to them when you want a divorce? Would that have any legal standing? My point here is that any religious objections to gay marriage should be irrelevant, as this should be debated only as a matter of law, period.

  69. Rich from Paso
    September 21, 2006 at 3:57 am

    I hear what you are saying, Bob, but I’m not sure that the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment was ever meant to be “the anything goes” clause. I think you venture out on thin ice or start down the slippery slope (chose your metaphor) with that argument. While I am not 100% opposed to gay marriage (about 30% actually), if you try to apply the equal protection clause to what amounts to a loving, yet basically sexual relationship between two adults regardless of gender, then what about two loving individuals regardless of age? NAMBLA (sickos) would love your definition. Or how about polygamy? Aren’t we denying one man who loves three women his right to marry all three without due process? If it is strictly a legal matter, then if a state legislature okayed bestiality as a legal form of sexual relation and granted a marriage license, would that be okay? It’s the law and the 14th Amendment, as we all agree, does not allow us to deny that person their right to molest a collie without due process of law. I’m not for any of the above, but the law is fallable, just ask a black man discriminated by Jim Crow laws. The supreme court for a century upheld separate but equal as the law of the land and said also said that slaves were property. Therr has to be some moral underpinning of the law for the law to be just. Again, I am not saying one way or the other that gay marriage is or is not just but I am not sure that the Old Testament should be the sole source of our moral background. I am saying that religion, the law, logic, science and plain old common sense should be brought together to come up with a right and just solution to the issue. The 12 points on gay marriage that was posted earlier makes some really strong points. Come on guys! This is the 21st Century! There has to be a middle ground here were everyone can get past this and just live and let live. After all, as far as I know, Tim has hurt ZERO people with his choice of partner, so what is the big damn deal anyway?

  70. JerryDinAZ
    September 21, 2006 at 4:39 am

    TIM, WHEN YOU MEET CHRIST AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE BE SURE AND ASK IF HE SAID THAT GIVING AND RECEIVING MALE ORAL SEX AND MUTUAL GAY MASTURBATION WAS ON HIS “OK” LIST…
    GOOD LUCK.
    OH…BRETT…SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP

  71. Bob from San Luis
    September 21, 2006 at 7:36 am

    Rich: The whole approach of comparing gay marriage to polygamy or bestiality doesn’t hold sway based on the accepted fact that marriage is a legal, binding contract between two people, of adult age, both of whom are consenting to enter into that agreement. If the equal protection clause were applied to marriage as a legal definition, the only change would be any reference to gender (i.e. between a man and a woman), to two adults who both agree to the “union”.

  72. JerryDinAZ
    September 21, 2006 at 3:16 pm

    I AM RIGHT AND THERE IS ONE OVERPOWERING TRUTH…YOU JUST FORGOT IT. SO LET ME GIVE YOU A BADLY NEEDED HISTORY LESSON…READ & REPENT!

    1. It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!
    — Patrick Henry

    2. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
    — George Washington

    3. Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian.
    –Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court)

    4. We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves . . . according to the Ten Commandments of God.
    — James Madison

    5. Religion . . . [is] the basis and foundation of government.
    — James Madison

    6. Whosoever shall introduce into public affairs the principles of Christianity will change the face of the world.
    –Benjamin Franklin

    7. The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer.
    –Noah Webster

    8. There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet.
    –Noah Webster

    9. The only assurance of our nation’s safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion.
    — Abe Lincoln

    10. The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next.
    — Abe Lincoln

    11. A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.
    — Samuel Adams

    12. I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens.
    — Thomas Jefferson

    14. The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.
    — John Quincy Adams

    As the Church/state debates continue, we are all called to a higher standard of scholarship. Advocates of a secular society use the slightest discrepancy to advance their own intolerant and bigoted agenda. Ignoring their own weaknesses and failures, they attempt to discredit both the message and messenger of America’s religious history. Their efforts are futile, however, for the religious foundations of America, to include the interactions between church and state, are well documented and easily unearthed. Now is the time to clean things up.

  73. JerryDinAZ
    September 21, 2006 at 4:08 pm

    The names “radical right,” “far right,” “extreme right” and “Christian right” are also part of the effort to marginalize and demoralize those with traditional views.
    Any Christian who has stood his ground on Biblical faith has grown uncomfortably accustomed to being called all sorts of names:

    Judgmental: People say, “You criticize our way – you don’t think we’re good enough for God!”
    The truth is in (Romans 3:23-24) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus

    Arrogant: “You think you’re better than us – that you have found the only way to eternal life!”
    The truth is in (John 14:6) Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

    Narrow-minded: “You think you have the only handle on truth. If you practiced the love you preach, you would see all people as worthy of salvation”
    The truth is in (1 Timothy 4:1) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

    Ignorant: “You simply don’t know the other paths to enlightenment”
    The truth is in (2 Timothy 4:3-4) For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths

    Old-Fashioned,: “You cling to obsolete myths”
    The truth is in (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever

  74. Anonymous
    September 21, 2006 at 4:28 pm

    lJerry,

    You are part of the effort to marginalize and demoralize those with views other than your own. It seems that is your sole purpose on this blog.

    Since you seem to be the authority on right and wrong and only live according to the bible, do you follow these guidelines set in the bible? If not, will you be damned to hell for all eternity? Or do you selectively chose which bible passages are convenient for you and all others to follow?

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

  75. Dave Congalton
    September 21, 2006 at 5:59 pm

    So how did a discussion of 9-11 turn into a war about gays? Just curious.

  76. Tim in Morro Bay
    September 21, 2006 at 7:52 pm

    Dave

    It started with Jerry’s gay-bashing statements in his ‘core beliefs of a democrat’ post. Several people responded and it was on.

  77. Mikey Ray
    September 21, 2006 at 7:59 pm

    What I find amusing is that you can so easily tell what parts of JERRY’S posts that he wrote, and which parts he cut and pasted. Here’s a clue – the pasted parts are all well written (even if wrong), there are no grammar or spelling errors, and they aren’t in CAPS. Didn’t somebody post a while ago about JERRY plagiarising something? I guess some people never learn. JERRY – if your going to steal things, at least try to HIDE IT.

  78. Rich from Paso
    September 22, 2006 at 5:27 am

    Dave, I would rather talk about how evil Mahmoud Ahwannajihad is or that Hugo Chavez is a whack job than whether or not someone is going to hell for practicing acts that a religious text finds objectionable. Oh wait, aren’t those two things the same thing? Did I just say that? Oh well.

    To be specific, the whole debate started with this point Jerry made on his “21 things a liberal has to believe”:

    19. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUAL PARADES DISPLAYING DRAG, TRANSVESTITES, AND BESTIALITY SHOULD BE CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED, AND MANGER SCENES AT CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

    And then all hell broke loose, so to speak.

  79. JerryDinAZ
    September 22, 2006 at 2:23 pm

    IT GOT STARTED BECAUSE THE WAR ON TERROR IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE WAR ON THE LIBERAL GAY AGENDA ATTACKING TRADITIONAL AMERICA. THE BOMBS ARE DIFFERANT BUT NO LESS EFFECTIVE! KEEP AMERICA STRONG AGAINST THESE ATTACKS!

  80. JerryDinAZ
    September 22, 2006 at 6:23 pm

    SPEAKING OF A LIBERAL AGENDA…VICTORIA SECRETS IS HAVE A SPECIAL SALE DAY FOR TEACHERS! BE SURE TO GET SOMETHING SPECIAL FOR YOUR TEENAGE SONS TO GIVE TO THEIR TEACHERS ON BACK-TO-SCHOOL NIGHT!

  81. Anonymous
    September 22, 2006 at 8:23 pm

    Jerry

    maybe you should stick to plagiarising other people’s work – your stuff just isn’t funny.

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